Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

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lupodimare89
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by lupodimare89 » 05 Aug 2019 09:33

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 1 September 1942. Six Fiat G.50 from Lentolaivue 26 strafed three Soviet guard ships near Verkkosaari at Lake Ladoga between 10.40 and 11.40 a.m. Italian MAS boat was damaged in a firefight as was a Soviet ship. Another two Fiat G.50 later strafed the same ships circa 13 kilometres east of Taipale.
Very intersting! I didn't know well the partecipating aircrafts (if Finnish or German and the type), but this was one of the few direct skirmishes in Ladoga Lake. Italian boat was MAS-529 and she clashed with Soviet MO-201, MO-213 and MO-215, receiving a direct hit in engine (could sail away at high speed, but needed replacement). Soviet boats indeed reported light damages by the aircrafts but also got 6 WIA from strafing.

Mangrove
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by Mangrove » 05 Aug 2019 16:17

lupodimare89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 09:33
Italian boat was MAS-529 and she clashed with Soviet MO-201, MO-213 and MO-215, receiving a direct hit in engine (could sail away at high speed, but needed replacement). Soviet boats indeed reported light damages by the aircrafts but also got 6 WIA from strafing.
Finnish translation of an after-action report by Lt. N. Maislisch on the battle of Verkkosaari on 1 September 1942. According to the report, a few machine gun bullets hit the other engine's water (coolant?) hose. The engine was stopped causing the maximum speed to drop to mere 10-15 knots with only one engine.

lupodimare89
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by lupodimare89 » 10 Aug 2019 10:30

Made a super-fast check of the list of Soviet D-3 motor torpedo boats in Baltic.

On 1/November/1941 there were two losses by air attack: TK-72 and TK-102 at Seiskari.

No idea of attacking aircrafts, but by location maybe it was Finnish?
I don't think there are other D-3 losses that can match Finnish air attack claims (another pair were lost by air attack but in 1945).

Mangrove
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by Mangrove » 11 Aug 2019 07:31

lupodimare89 wrote:
10 Aug 2019 10:30
On 1/November/1941 there were two losses by air attack: TK-72 and TK-102 at Seiskari.
No idea of attacking aircrafts, but by location maybe it was Finnish?
According to my listing on the previous page, six Fokker D.XXI from 2./Lentolaivue 30 claimed to have damaged one Soviet tug boat and two "guard ships" circa 10 kilometres south of Koivisto between 7.25 and 8.10 a.m on 1 November 1941. The tug boat caught fire and the guardship were rendered immobile. After refuelling, two Fokkers from the same flight strafed the ships again between 8.20 and 9.05 a.m. After the second strafing, the tug boat was fully consumed by fire. Incendiary bullets had no visibile effect on the guard ships.

Between 9.25 - 10.15 a.m, six Fokker D.XXI from 2./Lentolaivue 30 attacked three Soviet "motor torpedo boats" circa 5 km east of Seiskari. 20 mm anti-aircraft and machine gun fire was observed from all of the boats. Captain Karu, CO of 2./Lentolaivue 30, received a hit from a 20 mm and a machine gun round near the cockpit. He also lost the tail wheel from his Fokker. All three boats caught fire and two exploded and sank after a while. The third boat exploded and sunk during the second Finnish strafing attack by 2./Lentolaivue 30 at 11.10 a.m. One Soviet destroyer and two gunboats were then observed at the site where the three ships sunk. The Fokkers strafed the two gunboats and at least 6 men were KIA.

lupodimare89
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by lupodimare89 » 11 Aug 2019 16:03

Mangrove wrote:
11 Aug 2019 07:31
Between 9.25 - 10.15 a.m, six Fokker D.XXI from 2./Lentolaivue 30 attacked three Soviet "motor torpedo boats" circa 5 km east of Seiskari. 20 mm anti-aircraft and machine gun fire was observed from all of the boats. Captain Karu, CO of 2./Lentolaivue 30, received a hit from a 20 mm and a machine gun round near the cockpit. He also lost the tail wheel from his Fokker. All three boats caught fire and two exploded and sank after a while. The third boat exploded and sunk during the second Finnish strafing attack by 2./Lentolaivue 30 at 11.10 a.m. One Soviet destroyer and two gunboats were then observed at the site where the three ships sunk. The Fokkers strafed the two gunboats and at least 6 men were KIA.
I tried to make a super-fast check on the (larger and more messy) list of G-5 class MTB to see if there was a loss that could fit the third boat claimed and i've not found a match (but i gave only a fast check, will depart for vacation soon, and also G-5 boats are much more complicated being numerous, lots of name changes and different version of losses sometimes). Maybe it was some other kind of boat, or maybe one of the three boats was damaged and escaped.
It is known the serial number of Capt.Karu's fighter and what was the assessment of damage? I know little of Air Force, and I don't know if Finnish Air Force classified damages like Germans did (with %)

Mangrove
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by Mangrove » 12 Aug 2019 16:08

lupodimare89 wrote:
11 Aug 2019 16:03
It is known the serial number of Capt.Karu's fighter and what was the assessment of damage? I know little of Air Force, and I don't know if Finnish Air Force classified damages like Germans did (with %)
I could not find a repair order from any of the Kenttälentovarikko (literally "Field Aviation Depot") operating in the region, so I assume the damages were very minor and were repaired at the squadron. In general, Finnish Air Force did not evaluate damages as percentage of the whole aircraft, but merely what parts had to be replaced and was it worth it. Different plane types were given different repair priorities over others based on their combat and utility value. For example, front line fighters were repaired first and often even if the whole fuselage or wings had to be rebuilt.

Captain Bremer (CO of 2./Lentolaivue 32) and Sergeant major Koskinen, flying Curtiss Hawks "CU-571" and "CU-558" strafed two Soviet motor torpedo boats at south-west of Vitele / Видлица between 9.50 and 10.45 p.m. on 3 July 1942. The other boat was rendered immobile and was towed away by the other boat. They were equipped at least with 20 mm anti-aircraft guns.

Mangrove
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by Mangrove » 17 Dec 2019 21:52

Tugboat Aalto was sunk by an aerial bomb at Ruokolahti/Mantsinsaari at Lake Ladoga 5.58 p.m. on 5 July 1944. No lives were lost. 37. Raskas patteri had lost a motorboat due to strafing the same day at Mantsinsaari at 1.30 p.m.

Photograph below is from Hannu Valtonen's article MaatstLeR 957 Laatokalla, published on Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti 2/1995. IL-2 and two P-39 strafed Finnish motorboats Muikku ("Cisco") and Rausku ("Ray") carrying 200 pcs. of 57mm ammunition at Kekrinlahti, Lake Ladoga at 11.15 a.m on 17 July 1944. Muikku sank and while Rausku made to the shore, she burned down. Two men were wounded. The planes also strafed and sank a rowing boat near Orjatsalo and Honkasalo. The rower was left unharmed.
17_July_1944.jpg
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Mangrove
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by Mangrove » 14 May 2020 19:55

Tupolev SB from 5./57 AP bombed and sank Finnish S/S Valamon luostari (133 GT) at Valamo, Lake Ladoga, at 11.40 a.m on 22 January 1940. According to Geust's "Punailmavoimat talvisodassa", Soviet claimed to have sunk an icebreaker and two motorboats.

lupodimare89
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by lupodimare89 » 02 Oct 2020 13:33

I have found two incidents that could be further investigated on the Finnish side, both refering to aircraft-ship contacts in Ladoga Lake

On 10 September 1941, there is a claim of a Finnish "reconnaissance plane" by MO-205.
No exact info on location, identification etc. There is some report of a lone Finnish aircraft lost, damaged or in contact with Soviet boat on the lake for that day?

On 22 June 1944, during the Soviet landings at Tulokska, here the whole translated description:
June 22 at 15 h. 25 min. ships and vessels, concentrated in Novaya Ladoga, weighed anchor and headed to the place of disembarkation.
At 5 o'clock in the morning, four gunboats from a distance of 50-60 cables opened fire on the shore. 15 minutes before the landing, two regiments of bombers and one regiment of attack aircraft delivered the last bomb and assault strike against the enemy's antiamphibious defense. At 0547 hours, after our planes had bombed and departed, 17 enemy bombers appeared in the landing area. The ships temporarily stopped firing along the coast in order to repel the enemy's air attack with the full force of their fire. One landing barge was damaged by enemy bombs, one of the bombers was shot down.
There are Finnish data concerning this raid? (Type of aircrafts, claims, possible losses etc.). Not sure the identification of the damaged landing craft, but i am positive it can be identified in other Soviet/Russian literature.

Mangrove
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by Mangrove » 04 Oct 2020 15:09

lupodimare89 wrote:
02 Oct 2020 13:33
On 10 September 1941, there is a claim of a Finnish "reconnaissance plane" by MO-205.
No exact info on location, identification etc. There is some report of a lone Finnish aircraft lost, damaged or in contact with Soviet boat on the lake for that day?
There was a single Bristol Blenheim flight (BL-111 of Lentolaivue 44) between 2.40 and 5.40 p.m along the east coast of Lake Ladoga to Lodeynoye Pole (Lotinapelto) and Tikhvin (Tihvinä). There is no mention of of a MO boat on the mission report.
lupodimare89 wrote:
02 Oct 2020 13:33
On 22 June 1944, during the Soviet landings at Tulokska, here the whole translated description:
Between 4.45 and 4.52 a.m. (Finnish time) on 23 June 1944, 11 Finnish Ju 88, 4 Blenheim and 2 Do 17 bombed Soviet fleet at Tuulos (Tuloksa) with 20100 kg worth of aerial bombs. The bombers were covered by 7 Curtiss Hawk fighters from Hävittäjälentolaivue 32. The bombers claimed at least two ships having sunk and two caught fire. Coastal battery reports one ship having sunk and three caught fire. A Ju 88 (JK-259) did not return from the mission. According to later reports, the pilot, Captain Kosti Lehmus, dived to surface in order to avoid enemy fighters but the plane crashed near Karkunlampi in Salmi.

lupodimare89
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Re: Aircraft vs. ships & airwar over convoys etc.

Post by lupodimare89 » 05 Oct 2020 23:36

Thanks i had little doubts over the 1941 claim, but the operations at Tuulos/Tuloksa are quite interesting.

Digging in some Soviet/Russian books here other info i gathered: basically almost the whole of the Ladoga Flotilla was engaged.
Quite interesting that the 17 witnessed bombers match exactly the actual aircrafts dispatched.
The only confirmed damage by the aerial bombing is for sure one of the most unique crafts employed: DB-51 suffered a direct bomb hit (7 WIA) even if she didn't sunk. She was one of the German Siebel lost at Suho.
Other interesting info it's the presence of the very same Vice-Admiral Tributs on the scene, but on a m.t.b and not on the acting-flaghsip that i read being gunboat "Bira". Another sailor was wounded on a gunboat during the aerial attack but it's not said on which ship.

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