Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by tramonte » 03 Jan 2022 11:25

There is one quite interesting "blame" targetting 29 GIAP (275 IAD) mentioned in June 44 report of 275 th fighter division. There was statement that one Yak-9 of 29 GIAP shot down La-5 (according to the statement of the leader of the group of Chemodanov). The day not mentioned. It was mentioned in month report, page 4. In same page also mentioned 1 lost Yak-9 of 14 GIAP by own AA fire (day unknown). As I do understand these were not counted as combat loss of 275 IAD (in table) also with cases of two collisions (15 June 2 P-39, 2 Yak-9 in 28 June).

Translation (from page 4):

NOTE: a/ b 14 GIAP one aircraft , shot down by our 3A., was not included to the table, the loss of two crew who crashed during clash in the air Klepikov, Gordeev).ПРИМЕЧАНИЕ: а/ В I4 ГИАП один самолет , cбитый огнем нашей 3.А., Не вошла в таблицу потеря двух экипажей, которые разбились при столиновении в воздухе (Клепиков,Гордеев).

b/ b/ 29 GIAP one plane shot down La-5 (according to statement of lead of the group of Chemodanova?)б/ В 29 ГИАП один самолет , сбитый ЛА-5 (по заявлению веду щего группы Чемоданова) .

in / In 196 IAP, the loss of two crews, who crashed in a collision at the time of rebuilding in the air (Vorotnikov and Nesterenko), was not included in the table.


Atleast 13 VA reported La-5 losses to have been 3 in July 28 while 275 IAD reported 2.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 03 Jan 2022 19:01

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
07 Dec 2021 21:38

13.06.44: 1 Jak-9 (26 GIAP ,PVO) Lieutenant Kharitonov shot down in a night battle with a Ju-88, escaped by parachute.
According combat log of 26 GIAP they expressed it as this way:

00.00 two YAK-9 /guard Lieutenant Kharitonov and GW ml. Lieutenant Strizhak/ flew intecept enemy aircraft in the area of Uglovo, lake Lembalovskoye, the wingman of the GV, ml Lieutenant Strizhak in the area of Lake Lembalovskoye lost his leader. TV Jr. Lieutenant Strizak in the Terijoki area met 3 enemy aircraft of type Ju-88 and attacked one of them. The enemy plane went into the clouds, and Strizhak lost two friends against the background of the terrain, Lieutenant Kharitonov found Guards in the area at 00.45 Kekrol shot down two enemy aircraft of type Ju-88 and as a result of two consecutive attacks at H = 800-300 m. shot down one Ju-88, which fell north of Kekrol. Chasing another enemy plane, got into the fire zone of our FOR and MZA (AA) and was hit by an accidental hit of shells MZA (AA?) in the motor, Kharitonov escaped by parachute and landed in Hartola area on his territory. 01.02 Guards Lieutenant Romakhov on the plane YAK-9 flew to intercept enemy aircraft in the lake area. Lembalovskoe. In the patrol area, Romakhov met an enemy aircraft of type 10-88 at H = 800 m. and as a result of several consecutive attacks shot him down, Ju-88 fell burning in the area of the village Lipala.

Преследуя другой самолет противника, попал в зону огня нашей ЗА и МЗА и был подбит случайным попаданием снарядов МЗА в мотор, Харитонов спасся на парашюте и приземлился в районе хартонен на своей территории. 01.02 гвардии лейтенант Ромахов на самолете ЯК-9 вылетел на перехват самолетов противника в район озера.Лембаловское. В зоне патрулирования Ромахов встретил самолет противника типа 10-88 на H=800 м. и в результате няти последовательно проведенных атак сбил его, Ю-88 горящим упал в районе дер. Липала.

When tracking records of FiAF they report combat mission on night 12 June- 13 June at 22.25-01.35 a clock: 14 Ju-88, 19 Blenheim, 2 DB and 2 DF bombers were sent to bomb e.g the road Kivennapa-Mainila. In report mentioned fierce Soviet AA fire in Kivennapa-Mainila, Lintula, Karvola and Kerkola ("Kekrol"). "40 mm AA fire in Ronnunkylä and Kerkola." Report mentioned one Blenheim facing fire of Soviet fighter and having several bullet holes in hull. Blenheim BL-202 did not return, BL-142 force landing in Uukuniemi, one Blenheim belly landing in Mensuvaara and one force landing in Käkisalmi air base. There was no mentioned of FiAF Ju-88 or Blenheim managed to shoot down enemy aircraft.

Is this Russian expression "ЗА и МЗА" anti aircraft or did i get it wrong?
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 06 Jan 2022 19:33

There is one quite interesting "blame" targetting 29 GIAP (275 IAD) mentioned in June 44 report of 275 th fighter division. There was statement that one Yak-9 of 29 GIAP shot down La-5 (according to the statement of the leader of the group of Chemodanov). The day not mentioned. It was mentioned in month report, page 4. In same page also mentioned 1 lost Yak-9 of 14 GIAP by own AA fire (day unknown). As I do understand these were not counted as combat loss of 275 IAD (in table) also with cases of two collisions (15 June 2 P-39, 2 Yak-9 in 28 June).
There have been such cases. But in the absence of the date of the event, it is difficult to clarify anything. Perhaps it was that loss of La-5 Koshelev - the date of which is not known.
Such incidents might just be recorded as a loss from the enemy. For some reasons.

I assume that the losses in collisions in combat missions were not as combat losses. But the June 1944 report is not available and cannot be specified.
When tracking records of FiAF they report combat mission on night 12 June- 13 June at 22.25-01.35 a clock: 14 Ju-88, 19 Blenheim, 2 DB and 2 DF bombers were sent to bomb e.g the road Kivennapa-Mainila. In report mentioned fierce Soviet AA fire in Kivennapa-Mainila, Lintula, Karvola and Kerkola ("Kekrol"). "40 mm AA fire in Ronnunkylä and Kerkola." Report mentioned one Blenheim facing fire of Soviet fighter and having several bullet holes in hull. Blenheim BL-202 did not return, BL-142 force landing in Uukuniemi, one Blenheim belly landing in Mensuvaara and one force landing in Käkisalmi air base. There was no mentioned of FiAF Ju-88 or Blenheim managed to shoot down enemy aircraft.

Is this Russian expression "ЗА и МЗА" anti aircraft or did i get it wrong?
Yes "ЗА и МЗА" they mean - anti-aircraft artillery and small anti-aircraft artillery.

From this information, we can conclude that Romahov, flying in the period - 1.10 - 1.50, shot down a Blenheim BL-202. The latter exploded in the air and fell in the area of 10 km. northwest of the Lembovskie lakes.
Kharitonov was really shot down by AA, since the Finnish shooters have no complaints. Perhaps Kharitonov managed to damage the enemy bomber.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11538
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Jan 2022 23:07

tramonte wrote:
03 Jan 2022 19:01
lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
07 Dec 2021 21:38
13.06.44: 1 Jak-9 (26 GIAP ,PVO) Lieutenant Kharitonov shot down in a night battle with a Ju-88, escaped by parachute.
There was no mentioned of FiAF Ju-88 or Blenheim managed to shoot down enemy aircraft.
Keskinen & Stenman book Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia #19 writes (AFAIK based on documents) for example the following:
...Yksi hävittäjä tulitti JK-268:aa ja sai osumia vasempaan pyörägondoliin. Hyökkääjää tulitettiin ensin alakonekiväärillä ja lopuksi tykillä, jolloin vihollishävittäjä lensi tykin tulisuihkun läpi ja painui jyrkässä syöksyssä näkymättömiin
Something about that enemy fighter attacked JU-268 and managed to hit the wheel bay. The attacking enemy fighter was shot at by the ventral mg and finally by the forward 20mm gun. The fighter was seen to fly through the gun spray, and after that diving deeply.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11538
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Jan 2022 23:11

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
06 Jan 2022 19:33
Kharitonov was really shot down by AA, since the Finnish shooters have no complaints. Perhaps Kharitonov managed to damage the enemy bomber.
Really seems that before being shot down he managed to damage JU-268.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11538
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Jan 2022 23:23

tramonte wrote:
03 Jan 2022 19:01
one Blenheim belly landing in Mensuvaara
According to Keskinen and Stenman Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia #19:
BL-190 because of engine trouble, on it's way to the bombing mission.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11538
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Jan 2022 23:28

tramonte wrote:
03 Jan 2022 19:01
Report mentioned one Blenheim facing fire of Soviet fighter and having several bullet holes in hull.
According to Keskinen and Stenman: Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia #19:
My translation:
23:55 enemy fighter attacked BL-196. Evasion moves led the plane to Siestarjoki. Four bullet holes.

Regards, Juha

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1935
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by Mangrove » 09 Jan 2022 11:47

Some Finnish damaged claims for 26 June 1944. Originals from the National Archives of Finland, folder T 19284/122:

1. Yak-9 by Paronen (flying MT-448 with gondolas) circa 2-3 kilometres north of Kähäri (near Viipuri) between 10.50 and 11.30 a.m. Finnish time.
2. Two Yak-9B by Lampi between 12.00 a.m and 1.10 p.m Finnish time. One was last seen a kilometre north of Lake Ihantalanjärvi.
3. "Mustang" by Juutilainen north of Tammisuo (near Viipuri) between 12.55 a.m and 2.10 p.m Finnish time.

Paronen_YAK9_26_June_1944.jpg
Lampi_YAK9_26_June_1944.jpg
Juutilainen_AC_IL2_26_June_1944.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by tramonte » 12 Jan 2022 09:39

According loss reports of 275 IAD, 277 ShAD, 281 ShAD, rest of 13 VA (and PVO and VVS KBF which reported no losses in 26 June):

26.06.44: 1 La-5 (159 IAP) shot down in air combat,Serov, Vladimir KIA
26.06.44: 1 La-5 (159 IAP) shot down in aircombat, Tashlykov Nikolai KIA
26.06.44 1 La-5 (159 IAP) shot in air combat, emergency landing, aircraft written off, pilot Lt. Golovachev OK
26.06.44: 1 Jak-9 (14 GIAP) air combat, plane of Gerashchenko damaged, forced landing 1 km north Leipäsuo (Лейпясуо). Gerashchenko WIA
26.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down by AA (plane burned down, crew pilot Garmaš and gunner Amakayev KIA)
26.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD) shot down in air combat (plane broken, crew unharmed?)
26.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD) shot down in air combat (plane broken, crew pilot Stepanov, gunner (?) injured)
26.06.44: 1 Il- 2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down in aircombat (bf-109) (crew killed, perhaps Viktor Yukov and Juri Zaitsev, not sure)

(13 VA reported 4 Il-2 losses and only 2 La-5, not aircraft of Golovachev and Yak-9 of Gerashckenko)

No Airacobra losses found. The 872 ShAP Il-2 loss in air combat was only where crew was killed. I have no idea at what time Il-2 of 872 ShAP was shot down in air combat. 281 ShAP June report mentioned:
" In the district of YISALAKHTI (or NISALAKHTI) (?, ЫИСАЛАХТИ or НИСАЛАХТИ), the plane was set on fire by two Me-109s. A pilot on a burning plane pulled over from the northern shore Gulf of Finland to the south-east and 1 km west (?) of KALIALA (?) (зап.КАЛИАЛА) fell into the forest."

The report of 281 ShAD how that Il-2 was lost doesn't really confirm Il-2 of 872 ShAP was shot down by Juutilainen but likely some other FiAF pilot. But at least the timing of loss should be found first.

Uffz. Josef Quarda claimed one Il-2, time 13.12 (coordinates 81432 -->location in Tali). FiAF total 11 Il-2. 5 Il-2 at 10.30–11.05 and the rest 6 at 12.45-14.20. When estimating time period there are windows opened first in 10.45-11.50 and 13.00-14.05 when it likely took 15 minutes to fly to battle zone and from there back landing to own air bases.

Heinz Wernicke of II./JG54 claimed Yak-9 early evening 18.15, location 4 km east from Vyborg.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by tramonte » 16 Jan 2022 12:50

There are at least 6 names of crew members of 836 BAP (113 BAD, Il-4 division) mentioned as MIA/KIA in 19.06.44 and their initial burial location: Leningrad region, Vyborgsky district, Goncharovsky s/s, village Cherkasovo, grave 29 (Säiniö,Сяйние):

Zhuravlev, Andrei.(foreman) (836 BAP) 19.06.44 KIA (died), but in some sources mentioned deceased in 21 June 44.
Chernobay,Pjotr..(sgnt) (836 BAP) 19.06.44 MIA/KIA
Gallyamov, Jacob.(sgnt) (836 BAP)19.06.44 KIA
Egorov, Aleksander.(sgnt) (836 BAP) 19.06.44 MIA
Rutskoi, Vasili..(captain)..(836 BAP) 19.06.44 MIA/KIA
Sarzhevsky, Andrei.(jr ltn) (836 BAP 19.06.44 MIA
Egorova, Alexandra (sgnt) (836 BAP)..19.06.44 MIA

I don't know are Aleksander Egorov and Aleksandra Egorova actually one same person but at least 6 mentioned as deceased during same day (19.06.44), same place and having same initial burial location. So did 113 BAD lost actually 2 Il-4 during that day in Säiniö area?

https://obd-memorial.ru/html/search.htm ... 2,20,21,19
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 19 Jan 2022 13:41

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
09 Dec 2021 21:17
20.06.44: 1 Yak-9 (14 GIAP) shot down in air combat in Viipurinlahti, captain Rusak Stepan POW, probably shot down by pilots II./JG 54.
If this was shot down by pilot of II./JG54, then it must have been air victory without claim case because the Yak-9 claim of Josef Guarda certainly won't match at all with case of Rusak who was captured in Bay of Vyborg while Guarda's claim coordinates 91 412 are suggesting area around 50 km east from Vyborg. If coordinates were 81412 then the location situation would match much better. I don't know the combat mission time of Rusak.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 21 Jan 2022 18:47

I don't know are Aleksander Egorov and Aleksandra Egorova actually one same person but at least 6 mentioned as deceased during same day (19.06.44), same place and having same initial burial location. So did 113 BAD lost actually 2 Il-4 during that day in Säiniö area?
Most likely Aleksander Egorov and Aleksandra Egorova are the same person.
It cannot yet be ruled out that the 113th BAD lost more than one Il-4. But there is very little information on this division.
If this was shot down by pilot of II./JG54, then it must have been air victory without claim case because the Yak-9 claim of Josef Guarda certainly won't match at all with case of Rusak who was captured in Bay of Vyborg while Guarda's claim coordinates 91 412 are suggesting area around 50 km east from Vyborg. If coordinates were 81412 then the location situation would match much better. I don't know the combat mission time of Rusak.
Yes, I assumed that the pilot of II./JG54 did not claim victory. II./JG54 had such cases, for example, on 06/21/44 they claimed 2 La-5s, but actually shot down 3 or 4 La-5s of the KBF Air Force.

korup
Member
Posts: 84
Joined: 23 Dec 2014 02:15
Location: PL

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by korup » 22 Jan 2022 23:09

A confusion with Alexander Egorov is easy to explain:
Nominatiivi: Alexander Egorov
Partitiivi: Alexandra Egorova
It is still the same person...
Cheers,
Pawel

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Post by tramonte » 23 Jan 2022 11:57

This pretty interesting web article about air battle in 26 June 1944 between units of 159 IAP and FiAF/II.JG54 is suggesting that on that day Juutilainen had air combat likely not against any Airacobra units (he claimed 1 Airacobra, 1 "Mustang" and 1 Il-2) but most likely 6 Yak-9s led by major Dubovik. And Dubovik and his 5 comrades came back from combat mission without any losses.

"The only group of Soviet fighters, besides Serov's flight, that could be in the air at the time when Juutilainen fought with the Aerocobra and Mustang, was the six Yak-9T of the 3rd squadron of the 14th fighter regiment, led by the assistant commander of the regiment for VSS guards. Major Ivan Dubovik. Apparently, it was he who was attacked by the Finnish ace No. 1. The Dubovik group took off from the Maisniemi airfield to patrol the front line at 13:10-13:11 and was already returning home, having conducted an air battle with two groups of Messerschmitts..."

Единственной группой советских истребителей, кроме звена Серова, которая могла находиться в воздухе в тот период времени, когда Юутилайнен дрался с Аэрокоброй и Мустангом, была шестерка Як-9Т 3-й эскадрильи 14 гиап, возглавляемая помощником командира полка по ВСС гв. майором Иваном Дубовиком. Судя по всему, именно ее и атаковал финский ас № 1. Группа Дубовика вылетела с аэродрома Майсниеми на патрулирование линии фронта в 13:10-13:11 и уже возвращалась домой, проведя воздушный бой с двумя группами Мессершмиттов (ведущие лейтенант Рейно Валли из HLeLv 34 и лентоместари Виктор Пюётсия из HLeLv 24), в результате которого нашими летчиками было заявлено две воздушные победы – один Ме-109, упавший в лес в 1,5 км к северо-востоку от деревни Рейникка, был записан на счет майора Дубовика, а второй был сбит мл.

https://gull.livejournal.com/6152.html

And when it comes to case of Serov, Tashlykov and emergency landing Lt. Golovachev (3 lost La-5 of 159 IAP) the idea that Serov was shot down by Katajainen is quite questionable. The role of Wernicke and his claim (at very low altitude, 50 meters) might match better to Serov than that of Katajainen. In that article i didn't find anything mentioned about loss of Yak-9 (Gerashchenko, 14 GIAP), when, how and whom. The article suggesting Guarda had shot down 1 Il-2. And if II./JG54 had 3 true air victories were they 1 Il-2 and 2 La-5 or 1 Il-2, 1 La-5 and 1 Yak-9? Hans Wind claimed 5 Yak-9s during that day :roll: , three of them in 14.45–15.45 and two 16.25–17.45.

https://gull.livejournal.com/6467.html
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”