1948 to the present .....Arab Jewish Communites are dying

Discussions on other historical eras.
NickA
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Re: 1948 to the present .....Arab Jewish Communites are dying

Post by NickA » 15 Jan 2022 15:06

wm wrote:
04 Jan 2022 19:10
LineDoggie wrote:
04 Jan 2022 17:10
Many of those So Called Palestinians left because the arab league told them to get out of the way while they fortified areas to fight from.
The problem is they were/are forbidden to return.
Its a massive problem.

The Christians and Muslims have a right to be allowed to return to their homes by every possible legal and moral code. And they are or were supported in that by almost every country in the world.

And more - Israel promised almost as solemnly as possible to let the people back to their homes as it pleaded to gain entry to the United Nations in May 1949.

Israel even repeated its promise to be "Light unto Nations". Not comparable with Syria and Saudi, but a serious upstanding member of the Club that it was begging to join. Succeeding on the third attempt

NickA
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Re: 1948 to the present .....Arab Jewish Communites are dying

Post by NickA » 26 Jan 2022 20:47

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2022 13:37
Hi Pu(g)sville, First, which bits of that are you disputing?
I would dispute what you said here:
Sid Guttridge wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 09:26 - Jordan's Arab Legion was only about 12,000 strong and couldn't defend all the Arab populated towns. They told this to their leaders.
What communication are you saying came from "Jordan's Arab Legion"? And to whom was it addressed?

I would dispute what's been likely claimed on that subject by the very, very prejudiced and unreliable sources who carried out this immense ethnic cleansing. Jordanian troops (the only native army which had done any fighting in the recently ended WW2) were told by Abdullah (via Glubb?) to only move up to the previously agreed Green Line. (They went over in a few places - Latrune salient? - but were forced to fight and stand their ground in East Jerusalem).
Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2022 13:37
As a result the undefended Arab populations were primed for flight, something which the Israelis were only too happy to trigger.
What you've said has been loudly (though pointlessly) proclaimed by the ethnic cleansers - but its plainly contrary to all of the evidence.
Just on the radio broadcasts alleged, Erskine Childers, grandson of a well known Irish patriot and writer, worked for the BBC and became a leading official in Irish television, did a considerable investigation of radio intercepts monitoried in Cyprus.
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/12th-may-1961/8/the-other-exodus "The Other Exodus" wrote: There was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put ... Even Jewish broadcasts (in Hebrew) mentioned such Arab appeals to stay put. Zionist newspapers in Palestine reported the same: none so much as hinted at any Arab evacuation orders ... We need not even touch upon Arab evidence that panic was quite deliberately incited ... For example, on March 27 ... the Irgun's radio unit broadcast in Arabic ... just four days before the Haganah offensive ... warned "Arabs in urban agglomerations" that typhus, cholera and similar diseases would break out, "heavily" among. them "in April and May." ... Two weeks later, it was this same Irgun, apparently so solicitous of Arab welfare, that butchered the people of Deir Yassin.
There's a load more in that article - jealously guarded behind the Spectator paywall but chunks available on many blogs. Look it up and apologise for falling for the ridiculous hasbara you've accepted.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2022 13:37
The refugees' assumption was that the UN would intervene and they would soon be back home.
The very purpose of the UN - to stop Germany or other aggressors ever again annexing parts of Poland - was thrown away in 1948 when we accepted a new pirate state that would never respect any partition or border or any of the rules we'd just drawn up on refugees.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2022 13:37
Many families reportedly still have their house keys!
Why is that funny?
Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2022 13:37
This might address some of your questions from the military standpoint:
I'd not seen that analysis before and I'm sure that article is very good militarily - but it totally misses the point.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0968344517725541 wrote:The army of King Abdullah’s Transjordan that went to war with Israel in the Arab–Israeli conflict of 1948–49 – the Arab Legion, later the Jordanian army – was a remarkable military unit. First, some 37 British officers and 25 British non-commissioned officers (NCOs) led the army; second, the Legion was the most effective Arab army in 1948, in large measure because Britain as Abdullah’s ally led, funded, trained, and equipped it.2 It was the only Arab army in 1948 that covered itself in glory, defeating Israel in two sets of battles in and around Jerusalem’s old city and at Latrun (15 May–18 July), interrupted by a ceasefire (11 June–8 July). Most British Servicemen in the Legion were seconded from the British army, some had private contracts with Abdullah, and three were detached from the colonial service, including the Arabic-speaking supreme commander of the Legion, former army officer John Bagot Glubb.
The British commander and the British leader of the Jordanian forces were from the same stock of PTSD-blighted veterans unable to adjust to civvy life and were "fighting" (or making hay) for the Zionist cause. They had their instructions not to clash and their members saw no point in getting killed. No Palestinians would ever be protected by Abdullah, who had twice agreed (1937 and 1948) to let Israel have the Green Line. (He was murdered in Jerusalem in 1951 for being a treachorous puppet of ours).
Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jan 2022 13:37
You might also try: Morris, Benny (1986). The Causes and Character of the Exodus from Palestine in Pappé, Ilan. The Israel/Palestine Question. Routledge, 1999. Morris, Benny (1987). The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949. Cambridge University Press. The two towns to look at particularly closely are Lydda and Ramle.
I don't know what a book by a right-wing Israel "historian" who favours ethnic cleansing is supposed to prove. His bias is simply atrocious - lets look at his most famous book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem".
p.60 ... transfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism - because it sought to transform a land which was 'Arab' into a 'Jewish' state and a Jewish state could not have arisen without a major displacement of Arab population; and because this aim automatically produced resistance among the Arabs, which, in turn, persuaded the Yishuv's leaders that a hostile Arab majority or large minority could not remain in place if a Jewish state was to arise or safely endure.
Fine words indeed - until you examine what you've just read:
1) a 'Jewish' state was impossible without a major displacement of Arab population.
2) the Zionists wanted and intended to ethnically cleanse.
3) the Arabs became hostile because they didn't want to leave their homes.
4) so the Yishuv decided the Arabs were hostile and had to be thrown out of their homes.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: 1948 to the present .....Arab Jewish Communites are dying

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Jan 2022 13:35

Hi NickA,

You don't appear to have read or understood what I posted.

The Arab towns had mayors. They appealed for Arab Legion garrisons to defend them against the Israelis but were informed that this was not possible. The pragmatic reason was that the Arab Legion was small and already overextended. This sense of defencelessness primed many of them to flee to Arab Legion lines and into TransJordan as the Israelis approached. The Israelis were only too happy to encourage this.

At no point did I suggest that these Arab populations were encouraged to leave by Arab radio broadcasts. Their mayors were simply told that the Arab Legion couldn't help them and they were therefore on their own.

The refugees' assumption was that the UN would intervene and they would soon be back home. It is not "funny" that many Palestinian families still have their house keys. It is a fact. (Try: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/pa ... 98341.html )

You think Benny Morris is a "right wing Israeli historian"? This would surprise him, anyone who has read his books, and right wing Israelis alike! He describes himself as left-wing and was imprisoned for refusing to serve in the occupied territories as a reservist in the First Intifada. However, his view of the Second Intifada is apparently rather different.

In his book 1948 and After he quotes an IDF report listing the factors that precipitated the exodus in order of importance—

1) Direct, hostile Jewish [Haganah/IDF] operations against Arab settlements.
2) The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations on nearby Arab settlements
3) Operations of the Jewish dissidents [the Irgun Z'va'i Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]'

According to the IDF report, together these three factors were responsible for causing 70% of the exodus.

Furthermore, Morris states 'the report makes no mention of any blanket order issued over Arab radio stations or through other means, to the Palestinians to evacuate their homes and villages."

I would recommend that you read some of Benny Morris's books. He seems better able to stand back and view the conflict dispassionately than most other observers on both sides. If nothing else, you will be able to cherry pick a good number matters discreditable to early Israel from their pages.

Cheers,

Sid.

NickA
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Re: 1948 to the present .....Arab Jewish Communites are dying

Post by NickA » 02 Feb 2022 12:00

Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Jan 2022 13:35
Hi NickA, You don't appear to have read or understood what I posted. The Arab towns had mayors.
By 1948 all such mayors were either puppets - or dead/driven to destitution outside their country. Certainly after 1936 when the

Husseini was imposed on the Palestinians in 1920. He had stood for election as "Clerk of the Sharia Court" and come fourth (the Wiki confirms this). Herbert Samuel, passionately Zionist HIgh Commissioner (though not apparently a practising Jew!) imposed Husseini on the local Court System - and then made him "Grand Mufti", puppet leader of all Palestinians. Including the more wealthy and middle class who were Christians.

The same for all the Mayors of all Arab towns. While settlements were armed and connected with new roads by British and foreign funds, Palestinian Muslims and Christians had no voice nor any funds for any development. Husseini's sole money was the wages of teachers in totally neglected religious schools.

Nor could the Palestinians turn to any bank - this 1920 report was entirely suppressed for 80 years but expressed alarm that all development could only be funded by Zionist banks.
Palin Report wrote:p.27 Line 24. The incident of the veto on the Agricultural Loans, however, had a far greater effect in inflaming the growing irritation of the population against the Zionists. As no mortgages between private persons and banks could be carried out it became necessary for the Administration to help the cultivators in order that they might get their properties into order and cultivation again. A system of agricultural loans had existed under the Ottoman regime and was well understood. The Administration accordingly proposed a scheme by which it would directly advance money to actual cultivators on mortgage to the Administration. The Administration actually got the money to advance from the Anglo-Egyptian Bank and guaranteed the interest to the Bank, the Bank having no relations with the cultivators and no interest in the land mortgaged. The arrangements were in working order and giving great satisfaction, when the Zionists objected on the grounds that there was favouritism to the Anglo-Egyptian Bank and that the Anglo-Palestine Bank - a Jewish Bank - should have been given the opportunity of advancing the money to the Administration: also that the scheme interfered with the "Status Quo" by causing an appreciation in the value of land. The latter ground is interesting as showing that the Zionist organisation was ready to plead the "Status Quo" when they thought it was in their interest to do so. By order of the Foreign Office the granting of further loans was stopped.
The people at once came to the conclusion that the Zionists had interfered in order that they should be left in great straits and should ultimately have to sell their lands to the Zionists at any price. Although Dr. Weizmann subsequently agreed that there had been a mistake, the mischief was done.
From 1936 what we call "the Arab Revolt" was used to break up all forms of Palestinian civic society (and drive the Zionists own puppet, Husseini from his homeland!). Your claim that, in 1948, the Mukhtars had any international clout is laughable.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Jan 2022 13:35
The pragmatic reason was that the Arab Legion was small and already overextended.
What you mean is, the whole region was peaceful and defenceless. However, you're distorting the case, since the Arab Legion was the only force in the region that had played any part in the WW2 just finished. It was British led and and had done nothing to defend Palestinians since at least 1936. And, as I've said and nobody has disputed, Abdullah had betrayed all of the Palestinians by agreeing to the Green Line with David Ben Gurion in 1937 and with Golda Meir in March 1936. Jordan was under our puppet government and it strongly favoured the Zionists. Its not that "the Arab Legion was small and already overextended" but it was never going to do anything. (Half of this same army in modern Jordan is said to be protecting the Royal Palace in Amman).
Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Jan 2022 13:35
This sense of defencelessness primed many of them to flee to Arab Legion lines and into TransJordan as the Israelis approached. The Israelis were only too happy to encourage this.
Unfortunately, the record doesn't show what you claim. Villages were only de-populated when the Israelis (presently shouting "Remember Deir Yassin") attacked and started butchering the locals. I can't imagine who told you differently.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Jan 2022 13:35
At no point did I suggest that these Arab populations were encouraged to leave by Arab radio broadcasts.
I only posted you what Erskine Childers spoke about on the topic of radio broadcasts - there's a lot more that is very powerful evidence that the hasbara narrative you've posted is a complete invention. Did you read the rest of it? Its significant because he's the first outsider welcomed by Israel who tried to find out what happened.

His published report is corruscating and has never been disputed.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Jan 2022 13:35
The refugees' assumption was that the UN would intervene and they would soon be back home. It is not "funny" that many Palestinian families still have their house keys. It is a fact. (Try: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/pa ... 98341.html )
You've selectively quoted the Independent story to make fun of the ethnically cleansed - in shock and unable to believe that they'd been robbed so comprehensively and nobody will help them.
Independent wrote wrote:The farmer who owned this key lived in the Palestine border village of Al-Khalisa and locked up his home – built of black basalt stones – for the last time on 11 May 1948, when the Jewish Haganah militia refused the villagers’ request to stay on their land.
Israeli and Palestinian historians have agreed on the history of the village. Today, al-Khalisa is the Israeli frontier town of Kiryat Shmona, and the few refugees who remain alive in the squalid camps of Lebanon can still see their lands if they travel to the far south of the country and look across the border fence.
Few camps could be more vile than the slums of Chatila, where Mohamed Issi Khatib runs his equally shabby “Museum of Memory” in a hovel adorned with ancient Palestinian farm scythes, photocopies of British and Ottoman land deeds, old 1940s radio sets and brass coffee pots – and keys. Just three of them. One, without even a proper bit, was probably used for an animal shed.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Jan 2022 13:35
I would recommend that you read some of Benny Morris's books. He seems better able to stand back and view the conflict dispassionately
Double fault - Benny Morris is most certainly not dispassionate. And we don't look at WW2 dispassionately and make excuses - we don't even discuss why it was that all the Zionists (except a few members of Irgun?) including many of those in very influential positions sought to cover-up the Holocaust while it was happening. Zionists on the spot collaborated - including especially Rudolf Kastner (it appears that the Zionists no longer try to defend what he did sending 437,000 Hungarian Jews to certain and immediate death at Auschwitz).

Those two factoids are surely much bigger and more important mysteries than anything about the Nakba.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Jan 2022 13:35
You think Benny Morris is a "right wing Israeli historian"? This would surprise him, anyone who has read his books ... In his book 1948 and After he quotes an IDF report listing the factors that precipitated the exodus in order of importance— 1) Direct, hostile Jewish [Haganah/IDF] operations against Arab settlements. 2) The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations on nearby Arab settlements 3) Operations of the Jewish dissidents [the Irgun Z'va'i Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]'
His books are among the best for the time-line - but they reek of bias, as I showed you. He's quite clear - Israel's existence is good and ethnic cleansing was essential to it's existence. I have rewarded him enough already, buying "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited" and read at least portions of others. Why would I reward him even more for his hasbara?

You speak of dispassion ... I think anyone reading some of the last messages would think you were the last person to call for it. Hugely exaggerate what influence the Palestinians were allowed and laugh off how the protests of Palestinians were ignored. I think you should find Erskine Childers' report and tell me why I should not believe his account (the first from an independent source that made it into any reputable publication) of a totally cynical and major atrocity across 400 or more villages.

LAstry
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Re: 1948 to the present .....Arab Jewish Communites are dying

Post by LAstry » 13 Feb 2022 16:50


LAstry
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Posts: 139
Joined: 07 Feb 2022 17:33
Location: USA

Re: 1948 to the present .....Arab Jewish Communites are dying

Post by LAstry » 18 Mar 2022 14:27

Last year when the Jews of Yemen fled there were only about 7-4 left. According to a UN report for March 2022 there is only 1 Jew left alive in yemen who is imprisoned for smuggling a torah scroll out of Yemen .....to the Yemenite Jewish Community In Israel.....(Provided of course he is still alive)

https://jewishinsider.com/2022/03/only- ... e748f62d06  Jewish Insider MArch 14,2022

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