The history of the peopling of Europe

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 28 Sep 2016 21:52

A summary of ancient DNA studies on the population history of Europe, a very interesting lecture by David Reich:

https://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?Live=19940&bhcp=1

https://oir.nih.gov/wals/2016-2017/anci ... human-past
Beginning in 2010, it became practical to sequence whole genomes from DNA extracted from ancient human bones, and to analyze the data to understand changes in biology over time. Since then, the amount of ancient DNA data has increased at an extraordinary rate (...) Dr. Reich will begin his lecture by describing how present-day Europeans derive from a fusion of highly divergent ancestral populations as different from each other as are modern Europeans and East Asians. He will then summarize the history of modern humans in Europe over the approximately 45,000 years since they first arrived. (...)
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 23 Jul 2021 08:47

Is anyone else here interested in this subject?
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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henryk
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Re: The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by henryk » 23 Jul 2021 19:45


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henryk
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Re: The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by henryk » 23 Jul 2021 19:50

Also Peter K and I discussed he different theories on when Poles first settled in Poland

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Jul 2021 01:03

Are you interested in Slovak genetics?:

https://www.amazon.com/Axis-Slovakia-Hi ... 1891227416

Image

Is Slovakia homogenous? Or do they have ethnic minorities?

I know about Polish minority in Slovakia and Rusyn minority.

Any others?

Well yeah, German too. Germans used to be all over Europe.
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 27 Jul 2021 01:36, edited 3 times in total.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Jul 2021 01:26

Piotr Kapuscinski wrote:
27 Jul 2021 01:03
Are you interested in Slovak genetics?:

https://www.amazon.com/Axis-Slovakia-Hi ... 1891227416

Image

Is Slovakia homogenous? Or do they have ethnic minorities?

I know about Polish minority in Slovakia and Rusyn minority.

Any others?

Well yeah, German too. Germans used to be all over Europe.
Here is my (I'm Tomenable) interesting thread on Eupedia:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/3 ... W1-Hungary
Tomenable;543437 wrote:Polish minority in Slovakia (pre-1918 Hungary) is concentrated in the regions of Spis and Orava, which are today split between Poland and Slovakia. Data on the number of ethnic Poles in these areas before WW1 comes from Czech scholars Sembera, Polivka, Niederle and Pastrenk (for counties Liptó, Árva and Trencsén), Slovak scholars Misika and Czambela (for county Szepes) and Polish scholars Zawiliński, Smólski, Kołodziejczyk, Skawiński, Orłowicz (for Cadca district). There is also "Carte de la répartition de la population polonaise dans ses limites ethnographiques et sur les confins" from 1915.

That last of mentioned sources - map "Carte de la répartition de la population polonaise dans ses limites ethnographiques et sur les confins" from 1915 - gives the following percentages of Poles in each county: 50% for Árva, 30% for Szepes, 20% for Liptó and 16% for Trencsén.

1) Poles in County Trencsén:

According to Sembera and Pastrnek in year 1900 there were around 33,700 Poles in 13 towns and villages of the Csaca District in northern part of the Trencsén county. In addition to this, there were around 2,300 Poles in the city of Csaca itself.

So in total in 1900 there were 36,000 Poles in the Csaca District of the Trencsén county. Those 13 Polish settlements were:

Turzówka (Turzovka)
Rakowa (Raková)
Wysoka nad Kisucą (Vysoká nad Kysucou)
Maków (Makov)
Oleśna (Olešná)
Oszczadnica (Ócsad)
Podwysokie
Staszków (Staškov)
Zakopcze (Zákopcse)
Świerczynowiec (Svrčinovec)
Czerne (Cserne)
Skalite (Skalité)
Horzelica

According to Alois Votjech Sembera, "Mnoho-li jest Cechu, Moravanu a Slovaku a kde obyvaji", Vienna 1876, population of the Cadca district in Trencsén county at that time was 31,251 of whom 23,946 (77%) were Poles - but Sembera did not include population of villages Zakopcze, Maków and Wysoka, which were overwhelmingly Polish - if including also them, around 92% of the population were Poles. Czech scholar Frantisek Pastrenk in "O nareci polskem v horni stolici Trencinske” confirmed ethnic Polish character of that region. Roman Zawiliński who researched the Cadca District in years 1893-98 (travelling from village to village) confirmed Polishness of local inhabitants. In his book "Przyczynek do etnografii górali polskich w Węgrzech" published in 1910 he estimated the number of Poles in that region as 36,000 out of the total population of 40,038. Grzegorz Smólski who researched that region in 1903-1912 estimated the number of Poles as 36,000. Edmund Kołodziejczyk in "Ludność polska na Węgrzech" (1910) estimated that in 1900 there were 33,396 Poles (excluding the village of Zakopcze) out of 38,313 people, so 87% and 50% in the town of Cadca. Marek Skawiński included the village Zakopcze as well and arrived at 35,476 - 35,640 Poles, who were 93% of the total population. Mieczysław Orłowicz in 1913 estimated total population of Cadca Land as 50,318 including 47,000 (93%) Poles.

2) Poles in County Árva:

According to Sembera and Polivka, in 1900 there were around 30,600 Poles in 23 settlements of northern part of the Árva (Orava) county as well as around 2500 Poles in two other towns, and some number of Poles in other villages. In total around 34,000 Poles in Upper Orava in 1900.

3) Poles in County Szepes:

According to Sembera and Slovakian scholars Misika and Czambela, there were (in year 1900) at least 30,300 Poles in 50 villages (listed by name and by population size) in northern half of the Szepes county. Those 50 villages were almost fully Polish-inhabited. In addition to those 50 villages in a large number of other mixed German-Polish and Rusyn-Polish towns and villages Poles were around 50% of inhabitants and numbered at least 10,000.

So in total there were at least 40,000 Poles in northern part of the Szepes county in year 1900.

4) Poles in County Liptó:

According to Sembera and Niederle, there were 10 almost fully Polish settlements in Liptó county. They numbered in total almost 10,000 Poles in year 1900. In addition to that, there could also be some Polish individuals dispersed in other settlements.

5) Summary:

According to a 1919 Polish publication "Spisz, Orawa i okręg czadecki", there were at least ("conservative estimates") 180,000 Poles in Hungary, and at least 130,000 of them were concentrated in the areas of Polish settlement in Spis, Orava and Cadca (Csaca).
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Jul 2021 01:38

How about The Forgotten Polish minority in Latvia?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showt ... ia-s-Poles
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Steve
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Re: The history of the peopling of Europe

Post by Steve » 27 Jul 2021 01:52

Interesting post made a change from the usual though I would probably need to listen to the lecture a few times to fully understand it. A good book on the subject is Europe between the Oceans 9000 BC – AD 1000 by Barry Cunliffe 2008. I noticed some of the dates in the lecture varied from Cunliffe’s though not by much in the great scheme of things, science moves on. Reich gives a date of about 4000 – 3000 BC for an influx of Yamnaya steppe pastoralists into Europe. Cunliffe says that horses were first domesticated on the steppes in about 4000 BC and that evidence for wheeled vehicles first appears simultaneously in south – west Asia and northern Europe in about 3500 BC. The earliest depiction of a wheeled vehicle in Europe is from Bronocice, near Krakow dated to about 3500 BC. Perhaps the people of Bronocice were descended from recently arrived steppe pastoralists who had put granny and the kids in wagons and went looking for new land.

“we sequenced the genomes of 19 individuals located in the heartland of the CWC complex region, south-eastern Poland. Whole genome sequence and strontium isotope data allowed us to investigate genetic ancestry, admixture, kinship and mobility. The analysis showed a unique pattern, not detected in other parts of Poland; maternally the individuals are linked to earlier Neolithic lineages, whereas on the paternal side a Steppe ancestry is clearly visible.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63138-w

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