Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 21 Sep 2020 21:21

What was the number of German food imports from Poland?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 18 Dec 2020 02:36

Hey @wm, I have a question for you: How much more successful do you think that Russian settler colonialism would have been within the Russian realm had Russia avoided decades of Communist rule?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 26 Dec 2020 00:59

Russia needed modern agriculture, not colonialism.
I don't have much hope for such a country, with all the non-Russian republics gone it was going to be a weak country.
According to Solzhenitsyn, the political scene was entirely socialistic, so probably like pre-Pinochet Chile or modern Venezuela.
It would be a race to the bottom - who was the better socialist with the resulting poverty and chaos, till a strongman arrives.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 26 Dec 2020 01:20

Futurist wrote:
21 Sep 2020 21:21
What was the number of German food imports from Poland?
The imposed quotas:
Kontyngenty niektórych produktów rolnych i hodowlanych w Generalnym Gubernatorstwie w latach 1940–1944.png
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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 26 Dec 2020 01:42

ljadw wrote: The German domestic grain consumption remained stable during the war :from 25,1 million tons in 1938-1939 to 25 million in 1943-1944,while the net imports were going up from 2,5 to 4.6 million.
That proves
1 that there was no decrease of the daily calorie allowance
A constant concern was the supply of meat and bread. In April 1940, Herbert Backe had little choice but to cut meat rations, and he did so again the following year.
In the summer of 1941, the amount of meat available to a normal consumer had shrunk to 400 grams, just a little more than half of the amount of the first ration introduced in August 1939.
Nineteen forty-one also saw the beginning of potato rationing. When hopes for a quick victory in the East evaporated and advances on the Russian front stalled, the food situation deteriorated further. Alarmed by a bad harvest and increasing shortages in manpower and food, Nazi economic planners feared a repetition of World War I. ...

Taking as many resources as possible from the occupied countries became the highest priority. But it would only get worse in the following months. More ration cuts were introduced in February 1942, reductions that left the normal consumer with only 300 grams of bread.
The situation remained socially explosive.
The war—while supposedly launched to bring bread and employment to Germans—greatly hampered agricultural production and quickly diminished food reserves.
Nazi Hunger Politics: A History of Food in the Third Reich by Gesine Gerhard

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by ljadw » 26 Dec 2020 11:17

Some points
Ration cuts do not necessarily mean that the 'normal '' (what is normal ? ) consumer would get less food ,because there was also a semi-official market and a black market . And ,farmers were not hurt by ration cuts ,neither were most ''non farmers '' because even before the war ,in most European countries, ''non farmers '' produced a lot of their own food : they had pigs,potatoes,vegetables,made their own bread .
The rationing of meat in 1941 did thus not necessarily mean that people could get only 400 grams of meat . It was probably more . And an increase of ration did not mean that people could get more meat,or bread .
The following figures are from Die deutsche Landwirtschaftliche Preis-und Marktpolitik im Zweiten Weltkrieg PP 48 and 49
The war harvests (39/40 til ,included, 43/44 ) produced 121,7 million of tons.Imports were ONLY 17,6 million tons, stocks 8,8 million tons .
Total 147,5 million .
Consumption was :144,4 million tons of which 122 million from domestic sources,( 84 % ),17 million (12 % ) from imports ( of which only 10 million from the USSR and occupied Poland ) and 5,7 million from the reserves .
The ''official '' consumption (these figures are questionable ,because,how could the government know how much food people were eating ? ) was down by 10 %
38/39 : 28,1 million tons
39/40 : 30,9
40/41 : 30,6
41/42 : 27,9
42/43 : 27,1
43/44 : 27,9

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 28 Dec 2020 00:52

wm wrote:
26 Dec 2020 00:59
Russia needed modern agriculture, not colonialism.
I don't have much hope for such a country, with all the non-Russian republics gone it was going to be a weak country.
According to Solzhenitsyn, the political scene was entirely socialistic, so probably like pre-Pinochet Chile or modern Venezuela.
It would be a race to the bottom - who was the better socialist with the resulting poverty and chaos, till a strongman arrives.
Isn't that the point of settler colonialism, though? To Russify more of Russia and thus to allow Russia to keep more territories in the event of an eventual disintegration of Russia?

Also, which other pre-WWI European countries had an entirely socialistic political scene?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 28 Dec 2020 00:52

wm wrote:
26 Dec 2020 01:20
Futurist wrote:
21 Sep 2020 21:21
What was the number of German food imports from Poland?
The imposed quotas:
Kontyngenty niektórych produktów rolnych i hodowlanych w Generalnym Gubernatorstwie w latach 1940–1944.png
I wonder why 1944-1945 data only exists for grain and not for other foods.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 28 Dec 2020 02:21

Futurist wrote:
28 Dec 2020 00:52
wm wrote:
26 Dec 2020 00:59
Russia needed modern agriculture, not colonialism.
I don't have much hope for such a country, with all the non-Russian republics gone it was going to be a weak country.
According to Solzhenitsyn, the political scene was entirely socialistic, so probably like pre-Pinochet Chile or modern Venezuela.
It would be a race to the bottom - who was the better socialist with the resulting poverty and chaos, till a strongman arrives.
Isn't that the point of settler colonialism, though? To Russify more of Russia and thus to allow Russia to keep more territories in the event of an eventual disintegration of Russia?

Also, which other pre-WWI European countries had an entirely socialistic political scene?
So, wouldn't it be accurate to say that Russia needed BOTH internal colonialism AND more modern agriculture?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by andrek » 30 Dec 2020 14:04

There are quite a few citizens here in Germany who claim that the flooding of the country with Islamic socialized people since 2015 is equivalent to an exchange of the population. With 80 million inhabitants, around 10 million have an Islamic background. Demographics will show whether Germans, i.e. everyone who has always lived here, will be a minority in their own country in the future.

In this case, no state creates new living space, but religion creates new living space.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jan 2021 02:08

Hi andrek,

Muslims are not a nation.

In 2017 there were apparently 4,552,600 people in Germany from the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia, not all of whom were Muslims.

Even allowing for a million more from Syria, this still falls well short of your 10 million.

Who, exactly, are you counting?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Futurist » 01 Jan 2021 06:37

Maybe his 10 million Muslims figure was figurative as opposed to literal?

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jan 2021 12:01

Hi futurist,

Even if true, that hardly excuses inaccuracy, if such it be.

This is the Axis HISTORY Forum, not the Axis Wild and Unsubstantiated Generalization Forum.

Anyway, I am sure Andrek is more than capable of answering for himself.

That is why I asked of him. "Who, exactly, are you counting?"

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by ljadw » 01 Jan 2021 21:48

Sid Guttridge wrote:
01 Jan 2021 02:08
Hi andrek,

Muslims are not a nation.

In 2017 there were apparently 4,552,600 people in Germany from the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia, not all of whom were Muslims.

Even allowing for a million more from Syria, this still falls well short of your 10 million.

Who, exactly, are you counting?

Cheers,

Sid.
Andrek said : 10 million with Islamic background, thus probably his 10 million includes 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants .

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Re: Additional *realistic* post-1800 cases of nations acquiring Lebensraum (living space)?

Post by wm » 02 Jan 2021 10:47

In 2018, approximately 20.8 million people in Germany had a migrant background. Based on results of the microcensus, the Federal Statistical Office (Destatis) also reports that this was a 2.5% increase compared with a year earlier (2017: 20.3 million).
A person has a migrant background if he or she or at least one parent did not acquire German citizenship by birth. In 2018 this applied to one in four people in Germany.
migrant status Germany.png
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