HG Div - "Elite"?

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Pascal. Kullmann.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 18:29

Cult Icon wrote:
12 Aug 2021 18:24
Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 17:44
Yes I got that. I was just a bit suprised by the numbers.
In looking at the Armament of HG Parachute-Panzer division June 1, 1944 (History of Fallschirm Panzerkorps Hermann Goering, Kurkowski):

The oustanding feature is the stronger than normal anti-aircraft assets (70 x 20mm, 42 x 20mm Quad, 35 x 88mm).

Basically a stronger than normal division in terms of equipment by June 1944.
They basically had a whole Flak-Regiment. But if we think about the background of the formation, the Flak-Regiment could be seen as the cornerstone of the division. So it makes sense that they kept this regiment.

In spring 1943 (Tunisia) the division had three "infantry" regiments. They took over Fj.Rgt.5 in Tunisia.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 18:33

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 18:29

They basically had a whole Flak-Regiment. But if we think about the background of the formation, the Flak-Regiment could be seen as the cornerstone of the division. So it makes sense that they kept this regiment.

In spring 1943 the division had three "infantry" regiments. They took over Fj.Rgt.5 in Tunisia.
Makes sense given the source of the unit (Luftwaffe).

Also, on armor:

August 1944 Division HG: 31Jadpanzer IV, 64 Pz IV, 8 Flakpanzer 38 with (I./Pz.Rgt. HG ) 60 Pz V coming in November 1944.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 18:36

Cult Icon wrote:
12 Aug 2021 18:33
Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 18:29

They basically had a whole Flak-Regiment. But if we think about the background of the formation, the Flak-Regiment could be seen as the cornerstone of the division. So it makes sense that they kept this regiment.

In spring 1943 the division had three "infantry" regiments. They took over Fj.Rgt.5 in Tunisia.
Makes sense given the source of the unit (Luftwaffe).

Also, on armor:

August 1944 Division HG: 31Jadpanzer IV, 64 Pz IV, 8 Flakpanzer 38 with (I./Pz.Rgt. HG ) 60 Pz V coming in November 1944.
Its quite impressive that they conducted the Radzymin -Wolomin counterattack without their Pz V bataillon. But they weren't alone (2 SS Divs and 4 PzDiv aswell as 19 PzDiv + sPzAbt. 509).

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 18:59

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 18:36

Its quite impressive that they conducted the Radzymin -Wolomin counterattack without their Pz V bataillon. But they weren't alone (2 SS Divs and 4 PzDiv aswell as 19 PzDiv + sPzAbt. 509).
All in all the 1944 iteration of this unit can be considered a "beefed up" unit as far as equipment goes.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Aug 2021 19:59

Combat worth:
Herman Goring b.jpg
from Fire Brigades page 716
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 20:22

Michael Kenny wrote:
12 Aug 2021 19:59
Combat worth:

Herman Goring b.jpg

from Fire Brigades page 716
Fantastic chart. I find it odd that the unit had a KW rating of I in August 1944. The division was in continuous combat since the end of May (and suffered quite some equipment losses). Apparently the Moral was very good.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Aug 2021 23:43

Michael Kenny wrote:
12 Aug 2021 17:33
Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 16:21


Thats more than I expected. HG suffered heavily during HUSKY.
Total losses in Sicily:

Sicily losses.jpg

Page 3 from from https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hermann-Goring ... 0980463130

These losses are listed in Jentz Panzer Truppen II page 107 but It appears the significance was not realised

June 20...............46 III, 32 IV, 7 Befh, 20 Stug, 9 StuH.
Losses.................28 III, 21 IV, 4 Befh, 4 Stug, 3 StuH.
Evacuated ...........18 III, 11 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Deduction)
Aug 20................28 III, 31 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Panzer truppen II pg 136)
the Unit must have received new tanks sometime between leaving Sicily and the August 20 count.
Not also the 16 Tigers lost by HG.
Looks like the 504 Tiger Bn was still the early configuration with a mix of MkIII & Tigers. Or am I misinterpreting and the 504 was simply understrength this date?

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 13 Aug 2021 01:13

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
12 Aug 2021 23:43

Looks like the 504 Tiger Bn was still the early configuration with a mix of MkIII & Tigers. Or am I misinterpreting and the 504 was simply understrength this date?
2nd company was allocated to HG.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 14 Aug 2021 01:47

Cult Icon wrote:
13 Aug 2021 01:13
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
12 Aug 2021 23:43

Looks like the 504 Tiger Bn was still the early configuration with a mix of MkIII & Tigers. Or am I misinterpreting and the 504 was simply understrength this date?
2nd company was allocated to HG.
Wonder where the rest of the 504 Bn was?

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Aug 2021 04:09

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
14 Aug 2021 01:47


Wonder where the rest of the 504 Bn was?
1st kp is Rusting in Tunisia. 3rd kp was taken over by GD. sPz Abt 504 was reformed in late 1943 and is sent back to Italy in June 1944.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Aug 2021 14:54

Just read account of one of the company officers. 10th of August he tried to move the last four tanks of the company to Messina for evacuation. One caught fire from a fuel leak & blocked the road for a half hour. Two of the three remaining broke down in Messinia & could not be embarked. So, one survivor reached Italy.

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