HG Div - "Elite"?

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Pascal. Kullmann.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 06:26

Cult Icon wrote:
12 Aug 2021 03:10
Division HG fought in the Eastern Front in 44-45 and during the battles for Warsaw. divisions HG1 and HG2 were established along with the Panzerkorps HG corps HQ.
I guess that the division wasn't particularly happy about that. AFAIK they lost their entire Flak-Regiment.
Last edited by Pascal. Kullmann. on 12 Aug 2021 14:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Aug 2021 12:57

I don't know how complete the HG was in early September. The focus on the 16th PZ reflects The US centric view. You have to find Brit centric or German accounts for details on the HG or 15PG Div

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 13:06

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 06:26
I guess that the division wasn't particularly happy abou that. AFAIK they lost their entire Flak-Regiment.
I forgot what the TOE page (it was hosted online by a reliable source) but the Panzerkorps H.G. followed a similar organization scheme as the Panzerkorps G.D. It was designed mainly to conserve resources for subordinate formations.

I haven't read the K-history but the splitting up of the cadre to pollinate several weaker formations was what happened to G.D. However at least G.D. selected people and volunteers from across the army. All of this seems part of the never-ending German military's bureacratic tendency to create new formations despite lacking the means to reinforce them properly.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 15:02

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
12 Aug 2021 12:57
I don't know how complete the HG was in early September. The focus on the 16th PZ reflects The US centric view. You have to find Brit centric or German accounts for details on the HG or 15PG Div
Okay, thanks for the insight. 15PGD (Kampfgruppe Stroh) was quite heavily enganged at Hospital Hill. I think that HG (together with III/Fj.Rgt.1) was mainly enganged against commandos and rangers but it could be that they also send some elements west against 46. or 56. Div. Apparently elements of 3. PGD and 26. PzDiv were also enganged against X Corps.

A quote from the Osprey book concerning the HG Div and the commandos:
,,His men fought with great zeal and were considered tough opponents by the British Commandos who faced them."(Osprey, Salerno 1943, p. 22).
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 15:13

The other entity that replicated was the division FHH. This was also split into FHH1 and FHH2, and the economizing corps HQ, Panzerkorps FHH which followed a similar organizational form to Panzerkorps G.D. and Panzerkorps H.G.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 16:10

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 15:02
A quote from the Osprey book concerning the HG Div and the commandos:
,,His men fought with great zeal and were considered tough opponents by the British Commandos who faced them."(Osprey, Salerno 1943, p. 22).
The term "elite" applied with regard to German units is quite problematic particularly since they do not reinforce their units significantly until a refitting or rebuilding. So their units are only strong in the beginning of their lifecycle. When you read Spaeter G.D you should have noticed that the most elite German army unit spent most of its service understrength, albeit somewhat stronger than the regular units.

There is also the tendency of allied historians to throw this adjective around even when the German "elite" unit is just a regimental battlegroup. I think the Germans made too many titled units, and it is confusing even until this day.

On August 20, 1943 division H.G. had 16 Stug, 6 Stuh, 28 Pz III, 31 Pz IV, 3 PzBef.

LAH at the same time (also in Italy) had 4 PzII, 1Pz III, 58 Pz IV, 71 Pz V, 9 PzBef, 28 Pz VI

(Panzertruppen II, Jentz)

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 16:21

Cult Icon wrote:
12 Aug 2021 16:10


On August 20, 1943 division H.G. had 16 Stug, 6 Stuh, 28 Pz III, 31 Pz IV, 3 PzBef.


(Panzertruppen II, Jentz)
Thats more than I expected. HG suffered heavily during HUSKY.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 16:53

On July 10th 1943

HG Division: 20 Stug, 9 Stuh, 46 Pz III, 32 Pz IV, 7 PzBef

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Aug 2021 17:33

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 16:21


Thats more than I expected. HG suffered heavily during HUSKY.
Total losses in Sicily:
Sicily losses.jpg
Page 3 from from https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hermann-Goring ... 0980463130

These losses are listed in Jentz Panzer Truppen II page 107 but It appears the significance was not realised

June 20...............46 III, 32 IV, 7 Befh, 20 Stug, 9 StuH.
Losses.................28 III, 21 IV, 4 Befh, 4 Stug, 3 StuH.
Evacuated ...........18 III, 11 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Deduction)
Aug 20................28 III, 31 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Panzer truppen II pg 136)
the Unit must have received new tanks sometime between leaving Sicily and the August 20 count.
Not also the 16 Tigers lost by HG.
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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 17:34

Cult Icon wrote:
12 Aug 2021 16:53
On July 10th 1943

HG Division: 20 Stug, 9 Stuh, 46 Pz III, 32 Pz IV, 7 PzBef
Apart from the Pz III the losses don't look too dramatic. IF Jentz figures are correct...

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 17:41

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 17:34

Apart from the Pz III the losses don't look too dramatic. IF Jentz figures are correct...
I did not post these for the losses. This division's tank strength was similar to the ones in the Eastern Front of the same time period but less than the "elite" LAH (and other "elite" units) .

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 17:44

Cult Icon wrote:
12 Aug 2021 17:41
Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 17:34

Apart from the Pz III the losses don't look too dramatic. IF Jentz figures are correct...
I did not post these for the losses. This division's tank strength was similar to the ones in the Eastern Front of the same time period but less than the "elite" LAH.
Yes I got that. I was just a bit suprised by the numbers.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 12 Aug 2021 17:45

Michael Kenny wrote:
12 Aug 2021 17:33
Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 16:21


Thats more than I expected. HG suffered heavily during HUSKY.
Total losses in Sicily:

Sicily losses.jpg

Page 3 from from https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hermann-Goring ... 0980463130

These losses are listed in Jentz Panzer Truppen II page 107 but It appears the significance was not realised

June 20...............46 III, 32 IV, 7 Befh, 20 Stug, 9 StuH.
Losses.................28 III, 21 IV, 4 Befh, 4 Stug, 3 StuH.
Evacuated ...........18 III, 11 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Deduction)
Aug 20................28 III, 31 IV, 3 Befh, 16 Stug, 6 StuH. (Panzer truppen II pg 136)
the Unit must have received new tanks sometime between leaving Sicily and the August 20 count.
Not also the 16 Tigers lost by HG.
Is it just me or is the amount of tank reinforcements that HG received quite high for that time? Especially since it was between a pretty small duration of time.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Aug 2021 18:16

Cult Icon wrote:
12 Aug 2021 16:10


On August 20, 1943 division H.G. had 16 Stug, 6 Stuh, 28 Pz III, 31 Pz IV, 3 PzBef.

LAH at the same time (also in Italy) had 4 PzII, 1Pz III, 58 Pz IV, 71 Pz V, 9 PzBef, 28 Pz VI

......................... This division's tank strength was similar to the ones in the Eastern Front of the same time period but less than the "elite" LAH (and other "elite" units) .
1st SS had been moved from Russia to Italy to re-fit and reform. It left all its tanks in Russia and was issued new ones in Italy. The recently formed Panther Abteilung also joined the Unit in Italy. It was in effect a brand-new Division. It was also in the process of losing its Tiger Coy. which had become sSS Pz Abt101 so strictly speaking 1st SS did not have any Tigers on its books until they had to rush the Unit back to Russia in October and they simply 'took over' the Tigers of sSS PzAbt 101.

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Re: HG Div - "Elite"?

Post by Cult Icon » 12 Aug 2021 18:24

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
12 Aug 2021 17:44
Yes I got that. I was just a bit suprised by the numbers.
In looking at the Armament of HG Parachute-Panzer division June 1, 1944 (History of Fallschirm Panzerkorps Hermann Goering, Kurkowski):

The oustanding feature is the stronger than normal anti-aircraft assets (70 x 20mm, 42 x 20mm Quad, 35 x 88mm). 28 infantry guns is a bit high, the field artillery is normal but the rocket artillery is not (21 launchers). LMGs have a significant shortage. There are further discrepencies from the norm but these are the biggest ones.

Basically a stronger than normal division in terms of equipment by June 1944.

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