Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

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Juan G. C.
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Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Juan G. C. » 18 Apr 2021 17:37

Was a date ever set for operation ANVIL, as was 5 June 1944 for OVERLORD? I mean an ANVIL simultaneous with OVERLORD, and not operation DRAGOON, which was launched in 15 August 1944.

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 18 Apr 2021 18:27

Nominal target dates were set for planning purposes, & changed with circumstances. Some of those are mentioned in the sources already given on this subject in the last few weeks. Since specific dates for OVERLORD/NEPTUNE were not set in stone until relatively late in the game a date for ANVIL remained 'nominal' as well. Only a planning target.

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Juan G. C. » 18 Apr 2021 18:43

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
18 Apr 2021 18:27
Nominal target dates were set for planning purposes, & changed with circumstances. Some of those are mentioned in the sources already given on this subject in the last few weeks. Since specific dates for OVERLORD/NEPTUNE were not set in stone until relatively late in the game a date for ANVIL remained 'nominal' as well. Only a planning target.
Until now I have been unable to find any date for a simultaneous ANVIL, even nominal target dates.

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by OpanaPointer » 18 Apr 2021 18:46

Have you mined the references here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dragoon
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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 19 Apr 2021 18:25

Some, nothing i'd bet the farm on. Eisenhowers biographers, Atkinson, & a few DRAGOON specific books. They refer to one or two nominal target dates, but not any operating dates.

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Richard Anderson » 20 Apr 2021 00:53

Juan G. C. wrote:
18 Apr 2021 17:37
Was a date ever set for operation ANVIL, as was 5 June 1944 for OVERLORD? I mean an ANVIL simultaneous with OVERLORD, and not operation DRAGOON, which was launched in 15 August 1944.
No it wasn't and the idea of it being simultaneous with NEPTUNE were dropped in early November, with Eisenhower holding out for an indefinite date after NEPTUNE.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Juan G. C. » 20 Apr 2021 13:30

I have found several target dates for ANVIL here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a151685.pdf. Here it is said first that "in mid-December 1943, (...) the Service of Supply, North African Theater of Operations United States Army (SOS, NATOUSA) is informed of a proposed operation. The operational concept was for 450,000 men of three US infantry divisions, five French infantry divisions, and 2 French armored divisions to invade Southern France on 1 Jun 1944" (page 36). This seems to assume that ANVIL was to be launched after OVERLORD, as by then the target date for OVERLORD was still early May. Next, it is said that "AFHD directed on 28 February 1944 that planning proceed on the assumption that forces available would be three US infantry divisions, five French infantry or mountain divisions and two French armored divisions; and that the operations would be postponed a month until approximately 1 July 1944" (page 34). It is also said that one of the assumptions of planning for ANVIL was "OVERLORD would take place prior to any other amphibious landing" (page 32).

On the other hand, at Tehran the Combined Chiefs of Staff had agreed "That an operation shall be mounted against the South of France, on as big a scale as landing craft permit. For planning purposes D-Day to be the same as OVERLORD D-Day". In Command decisions (https://books.google.es/books?id=XIxWWh ... &q&f=false) it is said (page 276) that, according to the US Chiefs of Staff at Tehran, ANVIL, "for tactical and strategic reasons, should be launched no earlier than three or four weeks before OVERLORD rather than on the date suggested by Stalin [two months before OVERLORD]".
Richard Anderson wrote:
20 Apr 2021 00:53
No it wasn't and the idea of it being simultaneous with NEPTUNE were dropped in early November, with Eisenhower holding out for an indefinite date after NEPTUNE.
This seems to contradict what I cited above.

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 Apr 2021 18:19

Juan G. C. wrote: id=XIxWWhu9ARoC&pg=PA276&dq=%22three+or+four+weeks+before+overlord%22&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5l6WV6IzwAhXPNcAKHY9jBb0Q6AEwBHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url]) it is said (page 276) that, according to the US Chiefs of Staff at Tehran, ANVIL, "for tactical and strategic reasons, should be launched no earlier than three or four weeks before OVERLORD rather than on the date suggested by Stalin [two months before OVERLORD]"....
My view is three weeks , in terms of this scale, of ships, men, planning may as well be simultaneous. Four weeks could be crossing the dividing zone to 'earlier' in practical terms..

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 Apr 2021 18:33

If not already referred to; This: <https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a151685.pdf> CSI Battlebook 3-D Operations Anvi/ Dragoon Combat Studies Institute Ft Leavenworth Kansas.

May have some useful information. I've not had time to even skim it.

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Apr 2021 18:42

Well, it is 4-20.
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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Richard Anderson » 20 Apr 2021 22:15

Juan G. C. wrote:
20 Apr 2021 13:30
This seems to contradict what I cited above.
Clarke, Riviera to the Rhine, gives quite a bit of detail on the planning sequence of ANVIL. No date was set until after 6 June, it remained an amorphous "after D-Day" until then and while transmogrifying to DRAGOON.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Juan G. C. » 21 Apr 2021 09:13

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 Apr 2021 18:33
If not already referred to; This: <https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a151685.pdf> CSI Battlebook 3-D Operations Anvi/ Dragoon Combat Studies Institute Ft Leavenworth Kansas.

May have some useful information. I've not had time to even skim it.
Richard Anderson wrote:
20 Apr 2021 22:15
Clarke, Riviera to the Rhine, gives quite a bit of detail on the planning sequence of ANVIL. No date was set until after 6 June, it remained an amorphous "after D-Day" until then and while transmogrifying to DRAGOON.
Thanks, I'll take a look at those sources.

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Juan G. C. » 21 Apr 2021 10:02

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 Apr 2021 18:33
If not already referred to; This: <https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a151685.pdf> CSI Battlebook 3-D Operations Anvi/ Dragoon Combat Studies Institute Ft Leavenworth Kansas.

May have some useful information. I've not had time to even skim it.
I have just realized it is one of the sources I cited above.

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Re: Was a date ever set for ANVIL?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 21 Apr 2021 15:12

Hmm... HyperWar, Chapter 16 'The Anvil Decision'. page 338:

file:///Users/carlschwamberger/Desktop/War%20Plans/Overlord/The%20ANVIL%20Decision.webarchive

..refers to a plan for Op ANVIL dated 9 April 1943. That predated COSSAC & Morgans work. Doesn't say which HQ drew up that plan & of course no target date is provided. Im guessing this originated in the guidance provided by the Joint Chiefs at the end of the SYMBOL conference & writing this plan was done by the staff of one of the several army HQ in the MTO. When the JCS members got on the plane o leave Casablanca Jan 1943 they left Ike & Wilson with a long list of strategic objectives and proposed operations to consider...

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