Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

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ClintHardware
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 06 Feb 2018 19:41

MarkN wrote:Legged it at maximum speed
Legged it at maximum speed = 8 m.p.h on average if dragging 25-Pdrs and limbers. That really is legging it.

DAK KTB does not agree with your Vorausabteilung Knabe at this point, but then it is lacking detail in places.

The tanks might be the awesome armour of the scratched together single squadron of the 7th Hussars - can't recall what date they reached the frontier. They spent weeks entertaining themselves trying to ambush at least one 8-Rad (the 8-Rads kept legging it). The 7th Hussars final attempt at bagging an 8 Rad was foiled by a helpful American Major and then they handed their massive Light Tanks Mk. VI Bs over to the 3rd Hussars. There always has to be an American to make the film popular with the American public. No nurses in a truck needing a pint of Carlsberg so far found.
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by MarkN » 08 Feb 2018 18:42

ClintHardware wrote: Legged it at maximum speed = 8 m.p.h on average if dragging 25-Pdrs and limbers. That really is legging it.
Retreating at maximum speed is legging it as fast as you can.
ClintHardware wrote: DAK KTB does not agree with your Vorausabteilung Knabe at this point, ...
My Vorausabteilung Knabe???? :roll: I posted details from Spt Gp WD

How does DAK KTB disagree with the Spt Gp WD?

More detail can be found in other German KTBs.
ClintHardware wrote:... but then it is lacking detail in places.
The DAK KTB is a corps level diary. It has the level and quantity one would expect from a corps level diary. The WDF WD has even less 'detail' on the skirmish with a similar amount of words. However, one sentence grabbed my attention:
Importance of preventing enemy securing area BARDIA - CAPUZZO - SOLLUM - BARDIA stressed.
Given the Germans drove into Bardia and Sollum without a fight, and Capuzzo was taken quite sharpish too, it seems Gott didn't understand how important it was or perhaps he didn't feel the importance was stressed to him strongly enough to merit greater effort.
ClintHardware wrote:The tanks might be the awesome armour of the scratched together single squadron of the 7th Hussars - can't recall what date they reached the frontier. They spent weeks entertaining themselves trying to ambush at least one 8-Rad (the 8-Rads kept legging it). The 7th Hussars final attempt at bagging an 8 Rad was foiled by a helpful American Major and then they handed their massive Light Tanks Mk. VI Bs over to the 3rd Hussars. There always has to be an American to make the film popular with the American public. No nurses in a truck needing a pint of Carlsberg so far found.
The tanks mentionned in my previous post, the Spt Gp WD, were referring to German pantsers not British tanks. Pantsers which were not there, but were claimed to be by unreliable eyewitness. If they had been there, it would help your miscalculation on pantser losses though. :roll:

Off the top of my head, the 7H squadron were involved in probing action on the 15th or 16th.

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about regarding nurses, Carlsberg and American films.

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by Aber » 10 Feb 2018 23:04

MarkN wrote:
I have absolutely no idea what you are on about regarding nurses, Carlsberg and American films.
Have a cold one :D

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by Urmel » 11 Feb 2018 01:34

The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 11 Feb 2018 10:12

MarkN wrote: My Vorausabteilung Knabe???? :roll: I posted details from Spt Gp WD
If you say so. Legging it is perhaps in the eye of the panztsers. Enjoy the film.

The Light Tanks of ‘B’ Squadron 7th Hussars arrived amongst the 3rd Coldstream Guards at Sollum on the 9th April where they came temporarily the under the command of the battalion along with the twenty 3-Tonners of No. 14 Reserve Motor Transport Company R.A.S.C. The 7th Hussars’ first task was to cover the Sollum area dumps from raiding parties.

After dark on the 10th they motored along the Via Balbia and climbed the heights of the escarpment. They leaguered close to Musaid where they happily encountered Major A. I. C. Cameron originally from their regiment who had just arrived having escaped from Mechili two days earlier.

Having pulled back from outside Tobruk, Brigadier Gott’s Support Group began concentrating at Sollum late on the 11th April. The forward patrols of the 11th Hussars observed towards Tobruk, and early on the 11th they sent out three patrols to cover the western approaches to Capuzzo (Sidi Azeiz, Bir Charruba and Bir Ghirba). The 7th Hussars saw no German or Italian troops this day and came under the direct command of 22nd Guards Brigade H.Q. for operations.
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by MarkN » 11 Feb 2018 11:22

OK...

So does this ...
ClintHardware wrote:There always has to be an American to make the film popular with the American public. No nurses in a truck needing a pint of Carlsberg so far found.
... indicate he is engaged in writing a Holywood filmscript to satisfy the American public?

:lol:

XXXX
ClintHardware wrote: The Light Tanks of ‘B’ Squadron 7th Hussars arrived amongst the 3rd Coldstream Guards at Sollum on the 9th April where they came temporarily the under the command of the battalion along with the twenty 3-Tonners of No. 14 Reserve Motor Transport Company R.A.S.C. The 7th Hussars’ first task was to cover the Sollum area dumps from raiding parties.

After dark on the 10th they motored along the Via Balbia and climbed the heights of the escarpment. They leaguered close to Musaid where they happily encountered Major A. I. C. Cameron originally from their regiment who had just arrived having escaped from Mechili two days earlier.

Having pulled back from outside Tobruk, Brigadier Gott’s Support Group began concentrating at Sollum late on the 11th April. The forward patrols of the 11th Hussars observed towards Tobruk, and early on the 11th they sent out three patrols to cover the western approaches to Capuzzo (Sidi Azeiz, Bir Charruba and Bir Ghirba). The 7th Hussars saw no German or Italian troops this day and came under the direct command of 22nd Guards Brigade H.Q. for operations.
So, the British had some tanks in the Sollum area from the 9th onwards. Therefore, if the Germans claim to have spotted enemy pantsers when they arrived in the area on the 13th, there is a possibility of it being accurate - although unlikely as it seems the 7H squadron was held well back at that stage. However, British claims of seeing German pantsers on the same day remain on the level of absurdity since there were none there.

Mind you, perhaps you could write into your Hollywood script that the German advance was lead by pantsers to make it easier for your audiance to understand why the British put up such a poor performance in "preventing enemy securing area BARDIA - CAPUZZO - SOLLUM" as ordered.

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 11 Feb 2018 12:18

They don't think they did. They were content to withdraw as required in order to fight when ready in places of their choosing as far as possible by using their Mobility.

They would have really liked to hold Bardia etc but as you pointed out elsewhere the British Treasury had seriously undermined the Middle East. Generalleutnant Rommel was an excellent trainer for British and Commonwealth forces in the Middle East. This stuff could not have been mastered on Salisbury Plain and the surrounding towns and villages. We should have a statue of Rommel along Whitehall and if not there perhaps at Bovington.
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by MarkN » 11 Feb 2018 12:38

ClintHardware wrote:They would have really liked to hold Bardia etc but as you pointed out elsewhere the British Treasury had seriously undermined the Middle East.
Where did I do so?
ClintHardware wrote: Generalleutnant Rommel was an excellent trainer for British and Commonwealth forces in the Middle East. This stuff could not have been mastered on Salisbury Plain and the surrounding towns and villages. We should have a statue of Rommel along Whitehall and if not there perhaps at Bovington.
Are you now back to your pet fantasy of "the Empire exercising"? Is that the working title of your Hollywood script?

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 11 Feb 2018 15:13

MarkN wrote:fantasies delusional babbling fairy tales
Steady.

The circumstances and the War Diaries do not help you.

Ice Cold in Alex was made in the UK at Associated British Elstree Studios, Shenley Road, Borehamwood, Hertfordshire by the Associated British Picture Corporation.

Have a cold one in Alex if you get there. 8-)
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 12 Mar 2022 09:42

MarkN wrote:
14 Jan 2018 13:32
STRAWMANIA
It has been five years and I have just noticed MarkN's strawman comment - sorry for the delay.

The last British unit in Bardia was a platoon of the 1st D.L.I. and some R.E.s to blow up the water supply and get back to their units with Gott on the frontier. They blew up the water supply as far as they could and left Bardia open to the various Axis troops that came forward.

MarkN the arguments you subsequently give are irrelevant - there is no British or Australian war diary entry or veteran's account at Gott's level and below that backs up your contentions. Gott and 2nd Support Group (the elements outside Tobruk under Gott) along with the 11th Hussars and other troops that had come forward - did not need to engage or actively go forward to observe because the Axis troops would eventually make contact and then would be dealt with. The subsequent contacts and firefights illustrate that.

I think Gott did very well in causing what soon became Gruppe Herff to waste precious fuel and hold locations where they could be found and later dealt with.

Wavell was fairly irrelevant in terms of his orders to formations on the ground. The officers did what was possible with the few troops under command and avoided unnecessary losses to a very large degree by fighting limited skirmishes up till the 12th May firefight with Panzerabteilung Hohmann three days before BREVITY. The raid by the Coldstreams on Sollum Barracks and the raid on Fort Capuzzo including the squadron of the 7th Hussars do stand out as following Wavell's wishes but they achieved nothing except gaining knowledge and experience of the Axis presence.
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by Urmel » 17 Mar 2022 16:30

ClintHardware wrote:
12 Mar 2022 09:42
MarkN wrote:
14 Jan 2018 13:32
STRAWMANIA
I think Gott did very well in causing what soon became Gruppe Herff to waste precious fuel and hold locations where they could be found and later dealt with.
Seriously?

I mean, I've seen much delusion, but this is on a par with the Russians announcing ops in Ukraine are going to plan.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 11 Jul 2022 18:10

Yes seriously. The Support Group troops in 4 Columns (IRRC) and the others supporting them caused Gruppe Herff to travel many miles to attack them without much result. There were some results such as the 9th May but really not significant. Why do you doubt that?
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 11 Jul 2022 18:18

Also note that the British never bothered to hold Fort Capuzzo - the 11th Hussars stated, at least once, that Capuzzo was a reliable place to find Axis troops that they could watch and choose to attack, which they often did. Don't forget the 7th Hussars squadron in Light Tanks raiding Capuzzo and shooting it up - there was no intention to take it.

There is nothing in the British unit war diaries that supports your opinions. What are you working from? Give us a quote?
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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by Urmel » 14 Jul 2022 17:16

How did Gruppe Herff get 'dealt with'?

Oh, that's right, they never did. The only ones who were dealt with where the Allied forces. Motoring around in the desert and shooting up stuff that is irrelevant makes for great 'Boy's Own' and memoirs of public school boys. It doesn't win you the war, as the more astute of the British officers knew.

'Dealt with'. Seriously.
ClintHardware wrote:
11 Jul 2022 18:18
There is nothing in the British unit war diaries that supports your opinions. What are you working from? Give us a quote?
Yeah well. There is nothing in the history of the desert war that supports your opinions. Get your head out of the unit war diaries if you want to be taken seriously. By themselves they're just pieces of the puzzle. Holland does the 'ra-ra let's hear it for England' bit already, that market is taken.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Tobruk outside perimeter area april 1941

Post by ClintHardware » 15 Jul 2022 14:27

What utter Crêpe. Get your head into the unit war diaries and find out what was seen and done at the time it happened and compare both sides' actions. I am amazed with your response Urmel.
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