DAK's level of mobility and technology

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quechua
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DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by quechua » 16 Jan 2013 15:06

I found the comment below interesting, haven't read it before.
http://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=& ... buBl1jbHEg

"Such an odd state of affairs was remarked on by the OKH which pointed out how DAK's allocation of motor transport was 1/10th of that available for Barbarossa while its actual strength was only 1/78th of the force committed to the invasion of the Soviet Union"

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Kingfish
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Kingfish » 16 Jan 2013 16:19

Seems reasonable when you take into account the lack of infrastructure, relative to what was available in Russia. Even with a Russian scorched earth retreat and the need to re-gauge the rail lines the Germans could still count on getting supplies forward via the rail net. Not so in the North African Desert, where even water needed to be trucked over hundreds of miles.

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Urmel
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Urmel » 16 Jan 2013 16:57

No railways, no possibility to use horses (e.g. to replace prime movers for guns), and vast distances from main supply entry point to front. The 1/10th is probably understating the matter, since 100s of vehicles were sunk on the way across the Med.

Water for the Germans at least was prepared locally or procured from local wells. I don't think it was trucked very far.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Kingfish
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Kingfish » 16 Jan 2013 17:25

Urmel wrote:Water for the Germans at least was prepared locally or procured from local wells. I don't think it was trucked very far.
Do you have any data on this?
The skeptic in me says the local wells/oasis couldn't possibly supply enough water for several thousand men, but this skeptic is willing to be proven wrong.

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Ironmachine
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Jan 2013 18:44

Whatever the case, there was certainly a considerable number of vehicles involved in the water supply:
...water supply was never a major problem perhaps because, as the British observed, the Germans overestimateed actual consumption. As early as March-April 1941 the DAK had set up a sustem based on combat units carrying a four days' water supply, while many water supply units existed both to find and to transport water. These included the schwere and leichte Kompanie für Wasserversorgungs (heavy water supply company, the latter with 28 vehicles), the Kompanie für Wasserdestillation (water distillation company, some 200 strong with 105 vehicles), the Filterkolonne and the Wasserkolonne (filter and water columns), the latter capable of carrying 60 tons of water.
Taken from Osprey's Battle Order 20, Rommel's Afrika Korps, Tobruk to El Alamein.

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Urmel
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Urmel » 16 Jan 2013 18:47

D.A.K. had its own water desalination unit. There are quite a few pictures of it around on the net. Bardia/Halfaya had a good well that was sufficient for the garrison. So water supply was primarily local driving.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Urmel » 16 Jan 2013 18:50

Ironmachine wrote:Whatever the case, there was certainly a considerable number of vehicles involved in the water supply:
...water supply was never a major problem perhaps because, as the British observed, the Germans overestimateed actual consumption. As early as March-April 1941 the DAK had set up a sustem based on combat units carrying a four days' water supply, while many water supply units existed both to find and to transport water. These included the schwere and leichte Kompanie für Wasserversorgungs (heavy water supply company, the latter with 28 vehicles), the Kompanie für Wasserdestillation (water distillation company, some 200 strong with 105 vehicles), the Filterkolonne and the Wasserkolonne (filter and water columns), the latter capable of carrying 60 tons of water.
Taken from Osprey's Battle Order 20, Rommel's Afrika Korps, Tobruk to El Alamein.
That's what, 150-200 vehicles? So between 1-2% of the total number of vehicles present at the time of CRUSADER.

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... -nov-1941/

I wouldn't call that 'considerable'.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Ironmachine
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Jan 2013 21:30

Urmel wrote:That's what, 150-200 vehicles? So between 1-2% of the total number of vehicles present at the time of CRUSADER.
I wouldn't call that 'considerable'.
The "Theoretical Organization and Equipment of the Afrika Korps 1 September 1942" shown in http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/942GIKA.pdf gives the following units:
1 water supply column, 1 water column (with 2 light motorized water companies, 1 heavy motorized water company, 1 motorized water distillation company and 4 motorized water filtration companies), 1 motorized water supply column, 1 motorized water filtration column and 1 motorized heavy water column.
I would say that this amounts to "somewhat" more than 150-200 vehicles.
However, even being only 150-200, that is 1%-2%, it would have been considerable as that would mean they were 0.1%-0.2% of the total motor transport available for Barbarossa was being employed by the DAK for water supply (if I have not make a mistake in the calculations :) ).

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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Kingfish » 16 Jan 2013 22:03

Urmel wrote:D.A.K. had its own water desalination unit.
What was the output of the desalination unit?
Bardia/Halfaya had a good well that was sufficient for the garrison. So water supply was primarily local driving.
This would work well for the periods when the DAK was in control of Bardia/Halfaya, and stationed relatively close-by, but what about when it sat for 5 months on the Alamein line?
It's +400km from Bardia to Alamein.

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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Urmel » 16 Jan 2013 22:31

You go with less water. My understanding is the desalination unit had a reasonable capacity, and did provide a large share of the water to the Germans. But I don't have the numbers.

Page 75 onwards is relevant: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/d ... /toppe.pdf
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Ironmachine
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Ironmachine » 17 Jan 2013 09:04

Urmel wrote:My understanding is the desalination unit had a reasonable capacity, and did provide a large share of the water to the Germans. But I don't have the numbers.
I can't see any reference to desalination in Toppe's work; there are for distillation. Are both the same in this case? (Certainly distillation is a desalination method, but there are others).

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Leo Niehorster » 17 Jan 2013 09:31

Besides the various water supply units indicated by Ironmachine above, the DAK had three water transport platoons [534., 535., and 536. s.Kw.Kol.] in June 1941. (KStN 1227): "Wasserkolonnenzug (mot), each with 20×3-ton water tank trucks, each capable of transporting 50 cubic meters of water. (=60 trucks).

The KStN and designations of the units referred to by Ironmachine above are:
  1627 (W) — "technischer Zug für Wasserversorgung" — Technical Platoon for Water Supply
  1628 (W) — "schwere Kompanie für Wasserversorgung (mot)" — Heavy Company for Water Supply (motorized)
  1629 (W) — "Kompanie für Wasserdestillation" — Water Distillation Company
  1630 (W) — "leichte Kompanie für Wasserversorgung (mot)" — Light Company for Water Supply (motorized)
  1631 (W) — "Wasser Betriebszug" — Water Supply Operating Platoon
  1632 (W) — "Filter-Kolonne" — [water] Filter Column


Now, it has to be said that the DAK (and later the Deutsch-Italienische Panzerarmee) had more motor vehicles than authorized by tables of equipment, such as captured vehicles of all sorts, or the infamous French road-bound "Tunis" trucks. So, yes, there were a lot of trucks involved in water supply and supply in general, because trucks transported supplies, wet or dry, as often as they could. Only the dedicated water tank trucks would be used exclusively for water. The rest for whatever the supply commander deemed necessary.

Leo

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Urmel
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Urmel » 17 Jan 2013 12:56

Ironmachine wrote:
Urmel wrote:My understanding is the desalination unit had a reasonable capacity, and did provide a large share of the water to the Germans. But I don't have the numbers.
I can't see any reference to desalination in Toppe's work; there are for distillation. Are both the same in this case? (Certainly distillation is a desalination method, but there are others).
I believe they are the same.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by kfbr392 » 18 Jun 2021 16:34

Leo Niehorster wrote:
17 Jan 2013 09:31

The KStN and designations of the units referred to by Ironmachine above are:
  1627 (W) — "technischer Zug für Wasserversorgung" — Technical Platoon for Water Supply
  1628 (W) — "schwere Kompanie für Wasserversorgung (mot)" — Heavy Company for Water Supply (motorized)
  1629 (W) — "Kompanie für Wasserdestillation" — Water Distillation Company
  1630 (W) — "leichte Kompanie für Wasserversorgung (mot)" — Light Company for Water Supply (motorized)
  1631 (W) — "Wasser Betriebszug" — Water Supply Operating Platoon
  1632 (W) — "Filter-Kolonne" — [water] Filter Column
Thanks, Leo.
I found KStN 1628 of 20.07.42, „Wasserversorgungsstaffel für Sonderstab F“, for Sonderverband 287.
Source: NARA T78R863p309

this „water supply squadron“ contains notably:
-water purification troop
-[well] drilling troop
-well construction troop
-12x 3t trucks to haul water
-[water] filtering equipment
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Re: DAK's level of mobility and technology

Post by Urmel » 22 Jun 2021 07:44

kfbr392 wrote:
18 Jun 2021 16:34
Leo Niehorster wrote:
17 Jan 2013 09:31

The KStN and designations of the units referred to by Ironmachine above are:
  1627 (W) — "technischer Zug für Wasserversorgung" — Technical Platoon for Water Supply
  1628 (W) — "schwere Kompanie für Wasserversorgung (mot)" — Heavy Company for Water Supply (motorized)
  1629 (W) — "Kompanie für Wasserdestillation" — Water Distillation Company
  1630 (W) — "leichte Kompanie für Wasserversorgung (mot)" — Light Company for Water Supply (motorized)
  1631 (W) — "Wasser Betriebszug" — Water Supply Operating Platoon
  1632 (W) — "Filter-Kolonne" — [water] Filter Column
Thanks, Leo.
I found KStN 1628 of 20.07.42, „Wasserversorgungsstaffel für Sonderstab F“, for Sonderverband 287.
Source: NARA T78R863p309

this „water supply squadron“ contains notably:
-water purification troop
-[well] drilling troop
-well construction troop
-12x 3t trucks to haul water
-[water] filtering equipment
SV287 was a special unit with quite specialised ToRs.

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=400
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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