hi,
I am looking for a strategic explanation
as well as details of the
battle for Bir Hakeim in North Africa.
Is it true that there were Germans(AK) fighting
against Germans
(Legionnaires)?
thank you!
...peter
Bir Hakeim Africa Korps against Foreign Legion
-
coldam
- In memoriam
- Posts: 197
- Joined: 21 Oct 2002 23:51
- Location: all at sea
-
Jef
- Member
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 14 Oct 2002 23:42
- Location: Ottmarsheim, Alsace, France
-
David Lehmann
- Member
- Posts: 2863
- Joined: 01 Apr 2002 10:50
- Location: France
The 1st BFL (Bataillon de la France Libre) was formed in Syria from the following units with a glorious history :
- 13th Foreign Legion Half Brigade (13e DBLE), which fought in Norway and Africa,
- 1st Colonial Infantry Battalion (1er BIM) that had been stationed in Syria before the War.
- The Marine Fusiliers were survivors of Dunkirk, Brest and Cherbourg.
- Native African infantrymen were gathered in the 2nd Colonial Infantry Battalion.
- Colonial Pacific Battalion raised by Capitan Broche who rallied Tahiti to Free France.
- 1st Colonial Artillery Regiment had native Madagascar artillerymen
- There was also North African soldiers, Annamite nurses, ...
They were totally isolated and fought at 1 vs 10.
- 13th Foreign Legion Half Brigade (13e DBLE), which fought in Norway and Africa,
- 1st Colonial Infantry Battalion (1er BIM) that had been stationed in Syria before the War.
- The Marine Fusiliers were survivors of Dunkirk, Brest and Cherbourg.
- Native African infantrymen were gathered in the 2nd Colonial Infantry Battalion.
- Colonial Pacific Battalion raised by Capitan Broche who rallied Tahiti to Free France.
- 1st Colonial Artillery Regiment had native Madagascar artillerymen
- There was also North African soldiers, Annamite nurses, ...
They were totally isolated and fought at 1 vs 10.
-
alsaco
- Member
- Posts: 353
- Joined: 17 Apr 2002 15:50
- Location: France, Paris
In fact, the number of german and italian legionnaires in Bir Hakeim was limited.Jef wrote:Hi coldam,
there were germans and italians legionnaires. anti-fascit legionnaires.
regards jef
According to Legions rule, nationals of one country are asked if they accept to fight against their own country when operations request such a situation. Some volunteer, others refuse, and are then used on other front.
Moreover, the armistice had requested that all germans in France be sent back to Germany. The Legion had therefore, to protect his men, managed to send to Indochina all german nationality legionnaires. They served in the 5th regiment, and most of theM, erving in Laos and Tonkin retreated to China with the Alessandri column, when Japan seized Indochina in 1945.
-
coldam
- In memoriam
- Posts: 197
- Joined: 21 Oct 2002 23:51
- Location: all at sea
hi and thanks for the input,
I found a website in German about Hugo Geoffrey(ex-Gottlieb)
Jewish legionnaire from Vienna(which was German since 1938)
He fought at Bir Hakeim in the 13th brigade
2000 or 2400 legionnaires survived that battle.
Hugo Geoffrey was sent to Indochina after WW2,
ended up a general and getting the Legion d' Honneur.
There must have been others.
if captured by the AK
- the non-jewish German legionnaires too
would have had it quite rough
- being considered traitors
by the Germans
I have not yet found out
WHY
Bir Hakeim 'the oasis of the devil'
was so hotly contested.
Conjecture: This fortified 4X4 kilometer square(carree) in the desert
contained
an allied airfield that Rommel could not afford to have in his rear...
more info please - M.W. - anyone?
thanks!
...peter
I found a website in German about Hugo Geoffrey(ex-Gottlieb)
Jewish legionnaire from Vienna(which was German since 1938)
He fought at Bir Hakeim in the 13th brigade
2000 or 2400 legionnaires survived that battle.
Hugo Geoffrey was sent to Indochina after WW2,
ended up a general and getting the Legion d' Honneur.
There must have been others.
if captured by the AK
- the non-jewish German legionnaires too
would have had it quite rough
- being considered traitors
by the Germans
I have not yet found out
WHY
Bir Hakeim 'the oasis of the devil'
was so hotly contested.
Conjecture: This fortified 4X4 kilometer square(carree) in the desert
contained
an allied airfield that Rommel could not afford to have in his rear...
more info please - M.W. - anyone?
thanks!
...peter
-
Jef
- Member
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 14 Oct 2002 23:42
- Location: Ottmarsheim, Alsace, France
why Bir-hakeim was so important?
Because this place protected the left flank of the 7th Army in tobrouk and tbe 30th Corps in the desert.
from bir hakeim to Gazala there were mine fields. And Bir-Hakeim was at the extreme south of the mine fields.
You can notice that after the french retreat from the place, Tobrouk has fallen in the hands of the germans and Rommel became "Marechal".
That are the first facts i've found yet.
I'm going to read again another book about the desert war made by the Free french.
regards,
Jef
from bir hakeim to Gazala there were mine fields. And Bir-Hakeim was at the extreme south of the mine fields.
You can notice that after the french retreat from the place, Tobrouk has fallen in the hands of the germans and Rommel became "Marechal".
That are the first facts i've found yet.
I'm going to read again another book about the desert war made by the Free french.
regards,
Jef
-
alsaco
- Member
- Posts: 353
- Joined: 17 Apr 2002 15:50
- Location: France, Paris
On german participants in Bir Hakeim, I have found on the google news that they were mainly NCO having joined the Legion in the years 1934-1935, escaping Germany as opponents or Jews.coldam wrote:more info please - M.W. - anyone?peter
There is an important file on Germans fighting against Germany, WW2.
More information on Bir Hakeim can be found in Google, under Bie Acheim, in german, Bir Hacheim, in french, Bir Hakeim and Bir Hakem. In english, see also Gazala battle, as Bir Hacheim was the south end of this battle.
In French two books, one on the battle, Bir Hakeim fév-Jun 42, by Erwan Bergot, Presses de la Cité, Paris, 1989, the other on general situation and battle, La France Libre, by Jean-Louis Crémieux-Brilhac, Gallimard, Paris, 1996, chapter 16, p. 352 to 368.
On the internet, notes, comments and history can be found in
http://www.farac.org
http://www.artehistoria.com
http://www.birhakeim-association.org
http://www.net4war.com/history4war/doss ... keim01.htm
See also the links in each case.
Good work.
-
GMBlake
- Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 29 May 2005 20:39
- Location: texas
I'm researching BirHakeim, questions,answers,clarifications?
I'm doing research for a game scenario,
I'm interested in the re-supply effort to Bir Haiem after they were cut off.
The events leading up to the subsequent breakout,
The breakout action & linkup with Allied troops.
(when I originally started the research for this 4 weeks ago all I had was a supply effort by a group of armored cars to go on, & now I can hardly find any info on armored cars in the resupply effort..)
What I have so far..
Taken from varied web sources, some translated, & I'm not totally shure about the dates.
& what overlaps, but I’ve compiled as much as I can.
a good chunk from a quote o found from ISBN 0-89141-656-0Mitcham Jr., Samuel W. Rommel's Greatest Victory: The Desert Fox and the Fall of Tobruk, Spring 1942
Bir Hakeim 'the oasis of the devil' was hotly contested.
Conjecture: This fortified 4X4 kilometer square(carree) in the desert contained
an allied airfield that Rommel could not afford to have in his rear...
( did it? I don’t see one marked on any of the maps I’ve been able to scrounge, though anyone who knows where a better map of the fortifications is I’d be appreciative…)
From May 20, the 3rd battalion of the foreign Legion forms a grouping in charge of the monitoring of the minefields with three sections of bren carriers, three 75 carried, a telephone team, radios and a team of sapper-bomb disposal experts. Under the orders of the captain of Lamaze, it establishes its starting base about fifteen kilometers in the north of the fortified camp.
The Germans attacked Bir Hakeim on May 26. Over the next two weeks, the Luftwaffe flew 1,400 sorties against the defenses, whilst 4 German/Italian divisions attacked
May 27, while the principal body of the enemy passed to the south of Bir-Hakeim to turn the allied position, Italian mechanical division "Ariete" launched on the French a hundred of its tanks and in lost 40 whose wrecks remain on the glacis. The 28 and the 29, our detachments, radiant in all the directions, still destroy about fifteen machines and make 200 prisoners.
The position at Bir Hacheim takes the coarse shape of a fortified 4X4 kilometer equilateral triangle with long sides of more than five kilometers and point of support closed at the tops. The trenches and the sites are deeply buried and consolidated by sand bags. The point more raised, dimension 186, is in the North-East. It consists of two small slopes, in fact of the sand accumulated on the remains of two old called cisterns " the Udders. U N old fort in ruin delimits part of the southern edge. 50.000 mines are disseminated around the point of French support, leaving only thin corridors disengaged for the patrols and from the baffles for the three doors of the position. Lastly, a network of barbed wires covers part of the perimeter.
1st French brigade Libre counts 3.703 men divided into four small battalions and various units of support. 2nd and 3rd battalions of the Legion lay out of approximately 500 men each one and are respectively under the orders of the commanders Babonneau and Puchois. The garrison is partly equipped with armaments recovered with Raising. The 1st artillery account regiment 24 guns of 75. The anti-tank artillery has 6 gun of 75, 6 or 7 of 47 and 18 of 25. The marine fusiliers receive 12 anti-aircraft guns bofors of 40 mm 2x25’s
The garrison divided into three sectors, each one allotted to a battalion. The 2nd battalion of the foreign Legion occupies the frontage Is whereas the 3rd remainder in reserve. It constitutes the main part of the mobile groups - extremely of a company, several guns 75, of 25 or anti-aircraft carried - which often carry out recognitions in-depth far from Bir Hakeim
The garrison has 10 days of supply and 20.000 shells of 75.
During the bombing, shrapnel tore a hole in the Generals car and Travers (with the assistance of a Vietnamese driver) carried the part to a field workshop where mechanics fixed it.
May 31st At Bir Hacheim, a supply convoy arrives (from the 7th?)
with congratulations for the French defenders. It takes out the 600 Indians from 3rd Motor Brigade, 170 Italian PoWs, and various wounded men
"Hold six days more! " in Koenig the command combined at the evening of the 1 er June had prescribed. The six days passed. "Hold 48hrs more! Richtie
June 2nd 7th Motor Brigade were then ordered to help hurry and help the defenders at Bir Hacheim
. On June 2, the German forces requested that Koenig surrender, he refused "We are not here to surrender". and launched counterattacks with his Bren gun carriers.
June 3, the Rommel General addresses the summation, written to them his hand, to have to deposit the weapons, "under penalty of being destroyed like the English brigades of Got-el-Skarab
June 5, one of its officers comes to renew this setting in residence. It is our artillery which answers
Despite the explosion of the defence's ammo dump, (when? What day?)
the French continued to fight using ammo brought in by British armored cars during the night. Meanwhile, the Royal Air Force dropped water and other supplies.
The incredible boldness of a group of volunteers from the "Train" (transport corps) enabled a convoy of 30 lorries to reach the position under cover of night.
June 5th , an English convoy brings 6 000 Rounds of 75
but fails in its attempt to evacuate the most serious casualties.. (how?)
June 7th a last convoy of 15 trucks of supply succeeds in crossing the enemy lines at night.
June 7, the encirclement of Bir-Hakeim is complete. The 90 the 2nd German Division and Italian division "Trieste", supported by a score of batteries and hundreds of tanks are ready to give the attack.
June 8th, Rommel takes the direction of the operations personally. The attackers succeed in taking foot on the dimension 186 which overhangs the fortified camp.
many air raids join the ceaseless artillery shootings. The garrison receives the support of the hunters of the RAF whereas the 7th English motorized brigade vigorously badgers the backs with the enemy.
Well supported by Stukas, 115th Panzer Grenadier Regiment of the 15th Panzer Division stormed Point 186, the high ground north of Bir Hacheim, overlooking the main French positions.
Renton's battered 7th Motor Brigade had been running convoys of supplies, ammunition, and water to the garrison at night, and taking out wounded, the loss of Point 186 made Bir Hacheim untenable in the long run.
The British XXX Corps tried to take some of the pressure off the garrison on 9 June by sending columns from the 7th Motor, 29th Indian Infantry Brigade, and 4th Armoured Division to distract Rommel, and they did force him to divert part of 90th Light to deal with them
9th June, the remainder of 4th Armoured Brigade left the Knightsbridge Box and advance south to attempt to relieve the French at Bir Hacheim, but this attack faltered under the fire from 88mm guns.
10th June forty Stukas and twenty Ju-88 bombers dropped some 130 tons of bombs on Bir Hacheim. This time, the RAF could not break through the fighter screen. Meanwhile, on the ground, the grenadiers of the 90th Light Division (attacking without tank support) broke into the main defensive perimeter,
That evening, Pierre Koenig signaled Ritchie: "Am at the end of my tether. The enemy is outside my HQ." The Eighth Army commander knew that the end had come; he ordered the French garrison to break out that night.
10th the night of pull out
2nd KRRC and the Rifle Brigade aided the withdrawal of the French and 550 Company RASC, who took lorries and ambulances in to lift out the weary French and their wounded.
Breakout The retreat heads southwest, to fool the Germans.
( I believed that they were to go SE)
Travers drove the Generals staff car (a Ford) during the retreat. The retreating column ran into minefields and German machine gun fire. Koenig ordered Travers to drive at the front of the column. Travers states, "He said, "We have to get in front. If we go the rest will follow." It is a delightful feeling, going as fast as you can in the dark. My main concern was that the engine would stall." At 1030, on June 11, the column entered British lines. Travers' vehicle had been hit by 11 bullets and not only was a shock absorber destroyed, but the brakes had also cease
functioning.
Early on the morning of 11 June, the German wireless intercept unit picked up the news that the garrison was about to break out. The 1st Free French were attacked as they worked their way through a narrow gap,
12th radio message...
The Germans saying they execute "irregular" French prisoners,
The French reply that sadly they would have to do the same,
The German rescind the announced policy
14th 8thArmy orders general retreat
The 1st BFL (Battalion de la France Libre) was formed in Syria from the following units with a glorious history :
- 13th Foreign Legion Half Brigade (13e DBLE), which fought in Norway and Africa,
- 1st Colonial Infantry Battalion (1er BIM) that had been stationed in Syria before the War.
- The Marine Fusiliers were survivors of Dunkirk, Brest and Cherbourg.
- Native African infantrymen were gathered in the 2nd Colonial Infantry Battalion.
- Colonial Pacific Battalion raised by Capitan Broche who rallied Tahiti to Free France.
- 1st Colonial Artillery Regiment had native Madagascar artillerymen
- There was also North African soldiers, Annamite nurses, ...
They were totally isolated and fought at 1 vs 10.
Jewish legionnaire from Vienna(which was German since 1938)
He fought at Bir Hakeim in the 13th brigade
2000 or 2400 legionnaires survived that battle.
but, even so, more than half the brigade managed to escape, although it lost twenty-four guns and many of its motorized vehicles. Out of an original garrison of 3,600, about 2,300 or so made their way back to friendly lines,
including 200 wounded.
I'm interested in the re-supply effort to Bir Haiem after they were cut off.
The events leading up to the subsequent breakout,
The breakout action & linkup with Allied troops.
(when I originally started the research for this 4 weeks ago all I had was a supply effort by a group of armored cars to go on, & now I can hardly find any info on armored cars in the resupply effort..)
What I have so far..
Taken from varied web sources, some translated, & I'm not totally shure about the dates.
& what overlaps, but I’ve compiled as much as I can.
a good chunk from a quote o found from ISBN 0-89141-656-0Mitcham Jr., Samuel W. Rommel's Greatest Victory: The Desert Fox and the Fall of Tobruk, Spring 1942
Bir Hakeim 'the oasis of the devil' was hotly contested.
Conjecture: This fortified 4X4 kilometer square(carree) in the desert contained
an allied airfield that Rommel could not afford to have in his rear...
( did it? I don’t see one marked on any of the maps I’ve been able to scrounge, though anyone who knows where a better map of the fortifications is I’d be appreciative…)
From May 20, the 3rd battalion of the foreign Legion forms a grouping in charge of the monitoring of the minefields with three sections of bren carriers, three 75 carried, a telephone team, radios and a team of sapper-bomb disposal experts. Under the orders of the captain of Lamaze, it establishes its starting base about fifteen kilometers in the north of the fortified camp.
The Germans attacked Bir Hakeim on May 26. Over the next two weeks, the Luftwaffe flew 1,400 sorties against the defenses, whilst 4 German/Italian divisions attacked
May 27, while the principal body of the enemy passed to the south of Bir-Hakeim to turn the allied position, Italian mechanical division "Ariete" launched on the French a hundred of its tanks and in lost 40 whose wrecks remain on the glacis. The 28 and the 29, our detachments, radiant in all the directions, still destroy about fifteen machines and make 200 prisoners.
The position at Bir Hacheim takes the coarse shape of a fortified 4X4 kilometer equilateral triangle with long sides of more than five kilometers and point of support closed at the tops. The trenches and the sites are deeply buried and consolidated by sand bags. The point more raised, dimension 186, is in the North-East. It consists of two small slopes, in fact of the sand accumulated on the remains of two old called cisterns " the Udders. U N old fort in ruin delimits part of the southern edge. 50.000 mines are disseminated around the point of French support, leaving only thin corridors disengaged for the patrols and from the baffles for the three doors of the position. Lastly, a network of barbed wires covers part of the perimeter.
1st French brigade Libre counts 3.703 men divided into four small battalions and various units of support. 2nd and 3rd battalions of the Legion lay out of approximately 500 men each one and are respectively under the orders of the commanders Babonneau and Puchois. The garrison is partly equipped with armaments recovered with Raising. The 1st artillery account regiment 24 guns of 75. The anti-tank artillery has 6 gun of 75, 6 or 7 of 47 and 18 of 25. The marine fusiliers receive 12 anti-aircraft guns bofors of 40 mm 2x25’s
The garrison divided into three sectors, each one allotted to a battalion. The 2nd battalion of the foreign Legion occupies the frontage Is whereas the 3rd remainder in reserve. It constitutes the main part of the mobile groups - extremely of a company, several guns 75, of 25 or anti-aircraft carried - which often carry out recognitions in-depth far from Bir Hakeim
The garrison has 10 days of supply and 20.000 shells of 75.
During the bombing, shrapnel tore a hole in the Generals car and Travers (with the assistance of a Vietnamese driver) carried the part to a field workshop where mechanics fixed it.
May 31st At Bir Hacheim, a supply convoy arrives (from the 7th?)
with congratulations for the French defenders. It takes out the 600 Indians from 3rd Motor Brigade, 170 Italian PoWs, and various wounded men
"Hold six days more! " in Koenig the command combined at the evening of the 1 er June had prescribed. The six days passed. "Hold 48hrs more! Richtie
June 2nd 7th Motor Brigade were then ordered to help hurry and help the defenders at Bir Hacheim
. On June 2, the German forces requested that Koenig surrender, he refused "We are not here to surrender". and launched counterattacks with his Bren gun carriers.
June 3, the Rommel General addresses the summation, written to them his hand, to have to deposit the weapons, "under penalty of being destroyed like the English brigades of Got-el-Skarab
June 5, one of its officers comes to renew this setting in residence. It is our artillery which answers
Despite the explosion of the defence's ammo dump, (when? What day?)
the French continued to fight using ammo brought in by British armored cars during the night. Meanwhile, the Royal Air Force dropped water and other supplies.
The incredible boldness of a group of volunteers from the "Train" (transport corps) enabled a convoy of 30 lorries to reach the position under cover of night.
June 5th , an English convoy brings 6 000 Rounds of 75
but fails in its attempt to evacuate the most serious casualties.. (how?)
June 7th a last convoy of 15 trucks of supply succeeds in crossing the enemy lines at night.
June 7, the encirclement of Bir-Hakeim is complete. The 90 the 2nd German Division and Italian division "Trieste", supported by a score of batteries and hundreds of tanks are ready to give the attack.
June 8th, Rommel takes the direction of the operations personally. The attackers succeed in taking foot on the dimension 186 which overhangs the fortified camp.
many air raids join the ceaseless artillery shootings. The garrison receives the support of the hunters of the RAF whereas the 7th English motorized brigade vigorously badgers the backs with the enemy.
Well supported by Stukas, 115th Panzer Grenadier Regiment of the 15th Panzer Division stormed Point 186, the high ground north of Bir Hacheim, overlooking the main French positions.
Renton's battered 7th Motor Brigade had been running convoys of supplies, ammunition, and water to the garrison at night, and taking out wounded, the loss of Point 186 made Bir Hacheim untenable in the long run.
The British XXX Corps tried to take some of the pressure off the garrison on 9 June by sending columns from the 7th Motor, 29th Indian Infantry Brigade, and 4th Armoured Division to distract Rommel, and they did force him to divert part of 90th Light to deal with them
9th June, the remainder of 4th Armoured Brigade left the Knightsbridge Box and advance south to attempt to relieve the French at Bir Hacheim, but this attack faltered under the fire from 88mm guns.
10th June forty Stukas and twenty Ju-88 bombers dropped some 130 tons of bombs on Bir Hacheim. This time, the RAF could not break through the fighter screen. Meanwhile, on the ground, the grenadiers of the 90th Light Division (attacking without tank support) broke into the main defensive perimeter,
That evening, Pierre Koenig signaled Ritchie: "Am at the end of my tether. The enemy is outside my HQ." The Eighth Army commander knew that the end had come; he ordered the French garrison to break out that night.
10th the night of pull out
2nd KRRC and the Rifle Brigade aided the withdrawal of the French and 550 Company RASC, who took lorries and ambulances in to lift out the weary French and their wounded.
Breakout The retreat heads southwest, to fool the Germans.
( I believed that they were to go SE)
Travers drove the Generals staff car (a Ford) during the retreat. The retreating column ran into minefields and German machine gun fire. Koenig ordered Travers to drive at the front of the column. Travers states, "He said, "We have to get in front. If we go the rest will follow." It is a delightful feeling, going as fast as you can in the dark. My main concern was that the engine would stall." At 1030, on June 11, the column entered British lines. Travers' vehicle had been hit by 11 bullets and not only was a shock absorber destroyed, but the brakes had also cease
functioning.
Early on the morning of 11 June, the German wireless intercept unit picked up the news that the garrison was about to break out. The 1st Free French were attacked as they worked their way through a narrow gap,
12th radio message...
The Germans saying they execute "irregular" French prisoners,
The French reply that sadly they would have to do the same,
The German rescind the announced policy
14th 8thArmy orders general retreat
The 1st BFL (Battalion de la France Libre) was formed in Syria from the following units with a glorious history :
- 13th Foreign Legion Half Brigade (13e DBLE), which fought in Norway and Africa,
- 1st Colonial Infantry Battalion (1er BIM) that had been stationed in Syria before the War.
- The Marine Fusiliers were survivors of Dunkirk, Brest and Cherbourg.
- Native African infantrymen were gathered in the 2nd Colonial Infantry Battalion.
- Colonial Pacific Battalion raised by Capitan Broche who rallied Tahiti to Free France.
- 1st Colonial Artillery Regiment had native Madagascar artillerymen
- There was also North African soldiers, Annamite nurses, ...
They were totally isolated and fought at 1 vs 10.
Jewish legionnaire from Vienna(which was German since 1938)
He fought at Bir Hakeim in the 13th brigade
2000 or 2400 legionnaires survived that battle.
but, even so, more than half the brigade managed to escape, although it lost twenty-four guns and many of its motorized vehicles. Out of an original garrison of 3,600, about 2,300 or so made their way back to friendly lines,
including 200 wounded.
-
David W
- Member
- Posts: 3507
- Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
- Location: Devon, England
There was no airstrip within 25Km of Bir Hacheim during this period. & I don't think that there ever was.Conjecture: This fortified 4X4 kilometer square(carree) in the desert contained
an allied airfield that Rommel could not afford to have in his rear...
( did it? I don’t see one marked on any of the maps I’ve been able to scrounge, though anyone who knows where a better map of the fortifications is I’d be appreciative…)
-
GMBlake
- Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 29 May 2005 20:39
- Location: texas
Airfields Near Bir Hacheim
I have a map that shoes these allied airfields in the area
Bir el Gobi roughtly 27 miles due east
El Adem roughtly 25 mils NE (fell June 12 1942)
Tobruk roughy 27 miles N NE
I have no idea where any of the Axis airfields they pounded Bir Hacheim from are.
But I did read this nice article about how the allies worked out a system of 2ndary airfields to fallback to during the retreat to El Alamein.
They had just re-organised into a system where each air command could be run from a forward airfield & a fallback airfield.
It apparently served them well helping to maintain the pace of air operations for the allies.
Keeping the Luftwaffa busy & away from the staggeringly long lines of allied vehicles retreating on the road to El Alamein.
( I dunno where any of theise 2ndary airfields are)
Bir el Gobi roughtly 27 miles due east
El Adem roughtly 25 mils NE (fell June 12 1942)
Tobruk roughy 27 miles N NE
I have no idea where any of the Axis airfields they pounded Bir Hacheim from are.
But I did read this nice article about how the allies worked out a system of 2ndary airfields to fallback to during the retreat to El Alamein.
They had just re-organised into a system where each air command could be run from a forward airfield & a fallback airfield.
It apparently served them well helping to maintain the pace of air operations for the allies.
Keeping the Luftwaffa busy & away from the staggeringly long lines of allied vehicles retreating on the road to El Alamein.
( I dunno where any of theise 2ndary airfields are)
-
David Lehmann
- Member
- Posts: 2863
- Joined: 01 Apr 2002 10:50
- Location: France
Hello,
Information from Buffetaut : some elements may be double posts, other could be used to add new elements in the texe.
* the 1st BFL is in the camp of Bir Hakeim itself
* a mobile unit called 'Tomcol' is in action in the western part of the camp :
--- 1 motorized company with 4 SP-AT guns (probably 75mm Mle1897 field guns mounted on trucks)
--- 2 batteries of 75mm Mle1897 field guns
--- 1 Bofors 40mmm troop
* 1 detachment in charge of guarding the minefields :
--- 3 Bren Carrier platoons (FM 24/29 LMG, Boys AT rifle)
--- 3 75mm Mle1897 field guns (self-propelled ?)
French troops include :
4 infantry battalions
1 artillery regiment (4 batteries of 6 75mm Mle1897 field guns)
1 AT company (6 75mm Mle1897 field guns and 6 47mm Mle1937)
1 AA company (12 Bofors 40mm)
5 Bofors 40mm AA guns from 1st DFL
1 North-African rifle company
5 Italian 47mm guns
I have nothing precisely about 25mm AT guns.
But there are also no mention og the numbers of vehicles, men, Bren Carrier etc.
Note that there is also anumber of Dodge armored trucks, armed with a 7.5mm FM 24/29 LMG and a 37mm SA18 gun.
There are numerous minefields around the camp.
1) Before the siege
27th May : Italian attack but it is defeated
Italian losses :
35 tanks destroyed
76 POWs, including the colonel commanding the 132nd tank regiment
From 27th to 31st May :
French losses = 2 KIA, 4 WIA
Axis losses =
41 tanks destroyed
7 armored cars destroyed
1 self-propelled gun destroyed
+ various vehicles
9 officers POW
145 Italians POW
98 German POW
2) The siege
1st June :
The 7th AD (commanding the French brigade) orders that a French battalion moves to the north. On evening the order is cancelled but the battalion is already exposed in open terrain. It is attacked by the Luftwaffe : 11 KIA, 12 WIA, 12 vehciles destroyed, 1 Bofors 40mm AA gun destroyed
2nd June :
At 10h30 2 Italian officers wants the French to surrender. General Koenig refuses.
The camp is then shelles by 105mm guns and bombed by the axis air forces.
3rd June :
Rommel asks the French to surrender but they refuse. The French fire back on all targets in range.
The bombing of the camp goes on with : 75mm, 88mm, 100mm and 105mm guns from 8h00 to 21h00.
5 Ju87 waves also attack the camp, one of them is intercepted by the RAF and 4 aircrafts are shot down.
4th June :
1 British supply column manages to bring 3000 40mm shells and 6000 75mm shells.
5th June :
For the 3rd time the French troops are asked to surrender bu they refuse. The man making the demand in not authorized to enter in the camp ... and explodes on a mine from a minefield laid during the night.
6th June :
Axis artilery preparation and assault led by 2 battalions - defeated by French artillery and mortars.
At 20h00, renewed assault which is also defeated.
During the night, a British supply column brings enough water to stand until 11th June, as well as 5000 75mm shells (mostly APHE shells and not HE shells).
8th June :
At 7h30 : 60 German bombers attack the camp and there is a strong artillery preparation
At 10h00 : German assaults supported by tanks and 7.6cm guns (Soviet origin) - defeated
At 13h00 : renewed assaults, also defeated
At 18h00 : new air attacks and new assaults. 1 French observation post fells and 1 75mm gun is captured.
9th June :
From 8h30 to 13h30 : German air bombings and artillery preparation
Followed by a generalized assault on the whole front - defeated
During the evening, small supply dropped by the RAF (170 liters of water and 70 shells)
The 7th AD reports also that the camp can be evacuated by now.
There is a big lack of ammunition; only 150-200 75mm shells per gun are remaining
10th June :
New German assauls are launched at 9h00, 13h00 and 18h00, with air support. They are all defeated but on nightfall the French have only 1 75mm shell remaining.
Evacuation begins at 23h30 and there are bitter night combats to break the encirclement. At 5h00 ennemy tanks are appearing also.
FINALLY, after 10 days of combat in the camp
Axis losses :
52 tanks definitively destroyed
11 armored cars definitively destroyed
5 self-propelled guns definitively destroyed
7 aircrafts shot down by the AA defense
very numerous softskins definitively destroyed
POWs : 154 Italians and 122 Germans = 276
French losses :
1200 KIA, WIA and MIA
Buffetaut writes 40 75mm guns ... if I am not wrong there were only 24 in the camp ...
8 Bofors 40mm AA guns
5 47mm AT guns
About 250 vehicles destroyed
Regards,
David
Information from Buffetaut : some elements may be double posts, other could be used to add new elements in the texe.
* the 1st BFL is in the camp of Bir Hakeim itself
* a mobile unit called 'Tomcol' is in action in the western part of the camp :
--- 1 motorized company with 4 SP-AT guns (probably 75mm Mle1897 field guns mounted on trucks)
--- 2 batteries of 75mm Mle1897 field guns
--- 1 Bofors 40mmm troop
* 1 detachment in charge of guarding the minefields :
--- 3 Bren Carrier platoons (FM 24/29 LMG, Boys AT rifle)
--- 3 75mm Mle1897 field guns (self-propelled ?)
French troops include :
4 infantry battalions
1 artillery regiment (4 batteries of 6 75mm Mle1897 field guns)
1 AT company (6 75mm Mle1897 field guns and 6 47mm Mle1937)
1 AA company (12 Bofors 40mm)
5 Bofors 40mm AA guns from 1st DFL
1 North-African rifle company
5 Italian 47mm guns
I have nothing precisely about 25mm AT guns.
But there are also no mention og the numbers of vehicles, men, Bren Carrier etc.
Note that there is also anumber of Dodge armored trucks, armed with a 7.5mm FM 24/29 LMG and a 37mm SA18 gun.
There are numerous minefields around the camp.
1) Before the siege
27th May : Italian attack but it is defeated
Italian losses :
35 tanks destroyed
76 POWs, including the colonel commanding the 132nd tank regiment
From 27th to 31st May :
French losses = 2 KIA, 4 WIA
Axis losses =
41 tanks destroyed
7 armored cars destroyed
1 self-propelled gun destroyed
+ various vehicles
9 officers POW
145 Italians POW
98 German POW
2) The siege
1st June :
The 7th AD (commanding the French brigade) orders that a French battalion moves to the north. On evening the order is cancelled but the battalion is already exposed in open terrain. It is attacked by the Luftwaffe : 11 KIA, 12 WIA, 12 vehciles destroyed, 1 Bofors 40mm AA gun destroyed
2nd June :
At 10h30 2 Italian officers wants the French to surrender. General Koenig refuses.
The camp is then shelles by 105mm guns and bombed by the axis air forces.
3rd June :
Rommel asks the French to surrender but they refuse. The French fire back on all targets in range.
The bombing of the camp goes on with : 75mm, 88mm, 100mm and 105mm guns from 8h00 to 21h00.
5 Ju87 waves also attack the camp, one of them is intercepted by the RAF and 4 aircrafts are shot down.
4th June :
1 British supply column manages to bring 3000 40mm shells and 6000 75mm shells.
5th June :
For the 3rd time the French troops are asked to surrender bu they refuse. The man making the demand in not authorized to enter in the camp ... and explodes on a mine from a minefield laid during the night.
6th June :
Axis artilery preparation and assault led by 2 battalions - defeated by French artillery and mortars.
At 20h00, renewed assault which is also defeated.
During the night, a British supply column brings enough water to stand until 11th June, as well as 5000 75mm shells (mostly APHE shells and not HE shells).
8th June :
At 7h30 : 60 German bombers attack the camp and there is a strong artillery preparation
At 10h00 : German assaults supported by tanks and 7.6cm guns (Soviet origin) - defeated
At 13h00 : renewed assaults, also defeated
At 18h00 : new air attacks and new assaults. 1 French observation post fells and 1 75mm gun is captured.
9th June :
From 8h30 to 13h30 : German air bombings and artillery preparation
Followed by a generalized assault on the whole front - defeated
During the evening, small supply dropped by the RAF (170 liters of water and 70 shells)
The 7th AD reports also that the camp can be evacuated by now.
There is a big lack of ammunition; only 150-200 75mm shells per gun are remaining
10th June :
New German assauls are launched at 9h00, 13h00 and 18h00, with air support. They are all defeated but on nightfall the French have only 1 75mm shell remaining.
Evacuation begins at 23h30 and there are bitter night combats to break the encirclement. At 5h00 ennemy tanks are appearing also.
FINALLY, after 10 days of combat in the camp
Axis losses :
52 tanks definitively destroyed
11 armored cars definitively destroyed
5 self-propelled guns definitively destroyed
7 aircrafts shot down by the AA defense
very numerous softskins definitively destroyed
POWs : 154 Italians and 122 Germans = 276
French losses :
1200 KIA, WIA and MIA
Buffetaut writes 40 75mm guns ... if I am not wrong there were only 24 in the camp ...
8 Bofors 40mm AA guns
5 47mm AT guns
About 250 vehicles destroyed
Regards,
David
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GMBlake
- Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 29 May 2005 20:39
- Location: texas
I have nothing precisely about 25mm AT guns
Actually I believe that they had been armed with british 25lb'ers & had just re-fitted with the 75's
( I also read that they did not turn in 2 of the 25lb'ers back in.)
French troops also include :
# 1st company, engineers
# a transmission company
# 101st company, trains/automobiles -- the 101e Company of the Car-sleeper train.
# a light medical ambulance. -- a Light Mobile surgical unit.
Vehicles Total or included... 63 tracked light machines "Brenn-gun carriers"
Other information, there was a sand dune to the NE that Rommel used to shield the approach of an attack.
( I also read that they did not turn in 2 of the 25lb'ers back in.)
French troops also include :
# 1st company, engineers
# a transmission company
# 101st company, trains/automobiles -- the 101e Company of the Car-sleeper train.
# a light medical ambulance. -- a Light Mobile surgical unit.
Vehicles Total or included... 63 tracked light machines "Brenn-gun carriers"
Other information, there was a sand dune to the NE that Rommel used to shield the approach of an attack.
-
GMBlake
- Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 29 May 2005 20:39
- Location: texas
25mm AT guns listed here,
Maybe someone can translate direct from french (I'm relying on Google & It's not so good)The 1st B.F.L. is split in two parts:
Lune, under the orders of the Koenig General, occupies the position of Bir-Hakeim which is enclosed by a band mined in the shape of V manpower are denviron 3.700 men with 63 tracked light machines "Brenn-gun carriers" [ 1 ], 466 automatic weapons, 20 mortars of 81 mm, 18 Bofors guns against planes of 40mm and 24 guns of 75mm. It is necessary to add 55 anti-tank guns of 25mm, of 47mm without forgetting of the 75 "arranged" in Syria by engineers of Arts and M�tiers which made them suited to their mission anti-tank device.
http://www.farac.org/php/article.php3?id_article=178
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Montys Foxhounds
- Member
- Posts: 106
- Joined: 26 Sep 2004 18:00
- Location: Germany
Just one month ago I was at Bir Hakim, and it looks like the battle ended just yesterday. There is so much stuff lying around. The Citidel is still there plus the remains of other buildings. The original French cemetery is still out in the desert, however, the graves were moved into Tobruk, making it easier for to visit. To get to Bir Hakim you still have to go through a minefield. It is probably the most exciting place in North Afrika, with lots to find and bring home. I quite often lead tours there.
In my collection of DAK items I have a Werhpass to a chap in Panzer Grenadier Regt 361, he had served with the Legion before the war. When he was recalled to Germany, he had only one weeks training, spoke fluent French and later fought at Bir Hakim.
Regards
In my collection of DAK items I have a Werhpass to a chap in Panzer Grenadier Regt 361, he had served with the Legion before the war. When he was recalled to Germany, he had only one weeks training, spoke fluent French and later fought at Bir Hakim.
Regards
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Lupo Solitario
- Member
- Posts: 1127
- Joined: 21 Mar 2002 18:39
- Location: Italy, country of sun, wine and morons