El Alamein

RichTO90 · Post by **RichTO90** » 11 Jul 2006 14:02

David W wrote:II/115 renamed I/1 Afrika 05/10/42.

523 K renamed III/2 Afrika 06/10/42.

528 K renamed II/2 Afrika 06/10/42.

529 K renamed IV/2 Afrika 19/10/42.

533 K renamed II/1 Afrika 05/10/42.

408 S remaned III/1 Afrika 22/06/41.(or after).

HKAA 532 D.N.E it's usually a typo for HKAA 533. The mistake occurs in genuine original contemporary documents. (No one's perfect! Even Germans!)

I've suspected as much for some time, since I've never located any other info on HKAA 532. But that leaves open the question of what formed Stab II./Afrika-Artillerie 1? Also, note that the batteries of the various battalions forming the new regiment were reasigned throughout, I've only managed to identify HKAB 364 as 10./Afrika-Artillerie 1 and 4./ Heeres-Küsten-Artillerie-Abteilung. 149 as 2./Afrika-Artillerie 2 - does anyone know any of the other battery redesignations?

BTW, s.Artillerie-Abteilung 408 was renamed in October as well, I believe on the 5th, I'll see if I can confirm it.

RichTO90 · Post by **RichTO90** » 11 Jul 2006 14:23

Brad Hunter wrote:
I'm very interested in your info....

Thanks,

Brad

Like what? Panzerlage? Casualties?

Let's see, as of 9 October it was reported that Nebelwerfer-Batterie-Afrika was being formed with 4 15cm and 4 21cm Nebelwerfer and the organization was reported as complete on 25 October. No word on it's employment though.

Ooops, I missed the Panzerlage for 23 October, it's out of sequence and reported for DAK as a whole:

30 PzII, 80 PzIII (k), 86 PzIII (l), 8 PzIV (k), 30 PzIV (l), 4 PzBefehl, 279 Italian mediums, 20 Italian lights, 35 Italian Stug (note that the Italian Stug were not reported on 24 Oct)

BC reported 24 October:
XX AK (i) - 2 KIA, 5 WIA, 6 MIA
Kasta DAK - 2 KIA, 9 WIA
21 PzD - 5 KIA, 10 WIA (panzer losses I gave earlier are for 21 PzD)
ARKO - 18 MIA

BC reported 25 October:
X AK (i) - 16 KIA, 45 WIA
Ramcke - 1 KIA, 3 WIA, 1 MIA
DAK - 6 KIA, 15 WIA (7 Panzers operational)
15 PzD 32 Panzers operational
21 PzD 122 Panzers operational
XX AK (i) - 3 KIA, 9 WIA, 1 MIA
Ariete - 125 mediums operationa;
Littorio - 108 mediums, 20 lights operationa;
Trieste - 34 mediums operational
ARKO - 1 KIA, 12 WIA

Total BC reported to 26 October:
German - 148 KIA, 495 WIA, 1.057 MIA
Italian - 159 KIA, 424 WIA, 1,372 MIA

In detail:
X AK (i) for 24-26 October - 38 KIA, 130 WIA, 368 MIA
XXI AK (i) - 106 KIA, 253 WIA, 999 MIA (34 PW captured)
15 PzD for 24-26 October - 15 KIA, 35 WIA, 38 Panzer, 2 Pak (Sfl), 3 Pak 5cm lost, 3 s.FH13 (Sfl.), 1 sFH 18, 1 lFH 18, 3 Pak 7.62cm, 26 Panzer damaged (35 PW captured)
21 PzD for 23-25 October - 7 KIA, 20 WIA, 1 PzII, 1 Pak 5cm lost, 3 7.62cm Pak (Sfl.), 2 sFH13 (Sfl), 1 Pak 5cm, 3 PzIII (k), 2 PzIII (l), 2 PzIV (k), 1 PzIV (l) damaged
164. ID for 23-26 October - 80 KIA, 166 WIA, 1,029 MIA
AA 33 - 1 KIA, 5 WIA
Ramcke - 6 WIA

More?

Jon G. · Post by **Jon G.** » 11 Jul 2006 17:26

Really impressive OOB!

Brad Hunter wrote:...17th Railway Operating Co., NZE...

Was this the only Railway Operating Company directly subordinated to the 8th Army? I am asking because there were several other ROCs in the Middle East, most notably the 10th NZ (probably part of the 9th Army), 16th NZ, 193 RE and also the 115th (Indian) ROC. But I am unaware which higher formations they were attached to.

David W · Post by **David W** » 11 Jul 2006 17:40

I've suspected as much for some time, since I've never located any other info on HKAA 532. But that leaves open the question of what formed Stab II./Afrika-Artillerie 1?

Was it not StaB HK533?

RichTO90 · Post by **RichTO90** » 11 Jul 2006 18:54

David W wrote:
I've suspected as much for some time, since I've never located any other info on HKAA 532. But that leaves open the question of what formed Stab II./Afrika-Artillerie 1?
Was it not StaB HK533?

Sorry, I meant what was used to form Stab I./Afrika-Artillerie 2, not the other way around.

Some more infor on Luftwaffe Flak:

Organization of Luftwaffe Flak in North Africa as of 20 October 1942:

19. LW-Flak-Division – General (der Flaktruppen?) Heinrich Burchard
-- Stab/LW-Flak-Regiment 66 (o) – Oberstleutnant Hans-Heinrich Schreiber
---I./LW-Flak-Regiment 46 (gem. mot.) 1.-5. Batterie
--Stab/LW-Flak-Regiment 78 (mot.) – Oberst Kurt Nabakowski
--Stab/LW-Flak-Regiment 102 (mot.) – Oberst Hans-Georg Nicolai
---I./LW-Flak-Regiment 33 (gem. mot.) 1.-5. Batterie – Bir el Sut
---I./LW-Flak-Regiment 53 (gem. mot.) 1.-5. Batterie – Tobruk
--Stab/LW-Flak-Regiment 135 (mot.) – Oberstleutnant Walter Pickert
---I./LW-Flak-Regiment 18 (gem. mot.) 1.-5. Batterie – El Alamein
---II./LW-Flak-Regiment 25 (gem. mot.) 6.-10. Batterie – Gambut?
---I./LW-Flak-Regiment 43 (gem. mot.) 1.-5. Batterie – El Alamein
---I./LW-Flak-Regiment 6 (gem. mot.) 1.-5. Batterie – El Alamein

19. Flak-Division was counted with a Sollstärke of 72 8.8cm and 201 2cm Einling and 24 2cm Vierling as of 11 November. At that time there were 44 (according to the Gliederung) 8.8cm and 102 2cm on hand, after the reported loss of 50 8.8cm and 60 2cm, and receiving 24 8.8cm and 40 2cm as replacements. We may presume then that circa mid October there were 70 8.8cm and 122 2cm available.

Nominally each Gemischte Flak-Abteilung had three heavy batteries of 4 8.8cm and two light batteries of 12 2cm each for a total of 12 8.8cm and 24 2cm. The division Sollstärke above only counts six of the seven battalions listed (it is unclear why, although I./Flak-Regiment 46 may have just been arriving in Africa, although it’s transfer began in August as did that of Stab/LW-Flak-Regiment 66). Of course that calls into question the number of 2cm pieces, since the six battalions would only total 144 of the 225, leaving 81? Nor is it clear where the 2cm Vierling were supposed to fit in?

Anybody add to this?

David W · Post by **David W** » 11 Jul 2006 21:16

I think that II/5 Gem FlaK was in Tripoli @ 23/10/42.

As was II/12 Gem FlaK, I think.

Was Gem FlaK 354 Heeres as opposed to Luftwaffe? I think it arrived at Tobruk in August '42. I have it as reserve & transportable as opposed to Mot.

Sorry, I meant what was used to form Stab I./Afrika-Artillerie 2, not the other way around.

Then I can't help.

P.S. The only Vierling I have are.... 4 in 609th Fla & 4 in 617th Fla.

RichTO90 · Post by **RichTO90** » 11 Jul 2006 21:22

David W wrote:I think that II/5 Gem FlaK was in Tripoli @ 23/10/42.

As was II/12 Gem FlaK, I think.

Was Gem FlaK 354 Heeres as opposed to Luftwaffe? I think it arrived at Tobruk in August '42. I have it as reserve & transportable as opposed to Mot.

P.S. The only Vierling I have are.... 4 in 609th Fla & 4 in 617th Fla.

I'll check on those. Thanks for the Vierling info, I shoulda had that one.

More....

Ration strength of Panzerarmee Afrika as of 20 October:
Pz.A.O.K. mit Pz.A.Nach.Regt. 10 – 549
Gen.Kdo.D.A.K. mit Pz.K.N.Abtl. – 187
15. Pz.Div. – 9,239 + 190 attached
21. Pz.Div. – 9,410 + 205
90. le.Afr.Div. – 5,606 + 701
164. le.Afr.Div. – 8,840 + 809
19. Flak-Div. – 6,383
Lw.Jg.Bde. 1 – 4,645 + 96
HARKO Afrika – 3,069
Armee Versorgungstruppen – 1,380
D.A.K. Versorgungstruppen – 118
15. Pz.Div. Versorgungstruppen – 148
21. Pz.Div. Versorgungstruppen – 148
90. le.Afr.Div. Versorgungstruppen – 217
164. le.Afr.Div. Versorgungstruppen – 130
dem Kdt.-rück.Armeegebiet unterstellte Truppen – 1,154

Weapons strength of German units as of 20 October:
162 5cm Gr.W.
152 8cm Gr.W.
1 28/20 Pak
18 3.7cm Pak
11 4.7cm Pak (t) (Sfl.)
290 5cm Pak
4 5.7cm Pak (e)
45 7.5cm Pak
61 7.62cm Pak (r)
34 7.62cm Pak (r) (Sfl.)
7 Sd.Kfz. 221
17 Sd.Kfz. 223
38 Sd.Kfz. 222
8 Sd.Kfz. 231
15 Sd.Kfz. 232
8 Sd.Kfz. 260
36 Sd.Kfz. 261
20 Sd.Kfz. 263

Panzerlage (number in repair) as of 20 October:
31 (2) PzII
85 (17) PzIII (k)
88 (1) PzIII (l)
8 (2) PzIV (k)
30 PzIV (l)
2 Sd.Kfz. 266
4 (1) Sd.Kfz. 267
1 Sd.Kfz. 268
1 Stu.G. III (k)

Vehicles as of 17 October (totals, it was noted that 20-30% were in repair):
1,970 Pkw
4,559 Lkw
585 Zgkw
135 Sdkfz
864 Kraeder
273 Panzer
152 Pz.Sp.Wg. und M.T.W.
4,081 Beutefahrzeuge

Artillery as of 20 October:
ARKO Afrika:
6 7.62cm FK (r)
12 8.76cm FK (e)
20 10cm sFK (including 4 Italian)
4 11.4cm sFK (e)
9 15cm sFH (including 5 French 15.5cm)
20 15.5cm sFK (f)
9 17cm sFK
4 21cm Mrs

15. Pz.Div.
4 15cm sIG
5 8.76cm FK (e)
24 10.5cm leFH 18
4 10cm sFK 18
3 15cm sFH 18
8 15xm sFH 13 (Sfl.)

21. Pz.Div.
8 15cm sIG (Sfl)
4 8.76cm FK (e)
24 10.5cm leFH 18
4 10cm sFK 18
8 15cm sFH 18-
11 15cm sFH 13 (Sfl)

90. le.Afr.Div.
5 10.5cm leFH 18

164. le.Afr.Div.
2 7.5cm leIG
2 15cm sIG
12 10.5cm leFH 18
4 15cm sFH 18

LW-Jg.Bde. 1
5 7.5cm LG

RichTO90 · Post by **RichTO90** » 11 Jul 2006 21:33

David W wrote:I think that II/5 Gem FlaK was in Tripoli @ 23/10/42.

I show it as in Sicily except for 8. Batterie that went to Tunis in November and was lost there.

As was II/12 Gem FlaK, I think.

Ditto, it was in Crete except for 7., 9., and 10. that went to Tunis in November and were destroyed there.

Was Gem FlaK 354 Heeres as opposed to Luftwaffe? I think it arrived at Tobruk in August '42. I have it as reserve & transportable as opposed to Mot.

354 arrived in Tobruk in August 1942, it was a gemischte-verlegung Abteilung. It was probably under command of Stab/LW-Flak-Regiment 66.

David W · Post by **David W** » 11 Jul 2006 23:38

Going back to the Commonwealth forces, what about 54th & 56th Heavy Regiments (R.A) ??

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 11 Jul 2006 23:48

David W wrote:what about 54th & 56th Heavy Regiments (R.A)?

At El Al? I thought they only showed up in Africa as part of 1AGRA in Op TORCH?

David W · Post by **David W** » 11 Jul 2006 23:53

I thought that they landed in Alexandria in late 1941.

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 12 Jul 2006 00:33

Hmm. Nigel Evans has them att to 1AGRA. Also, I've never seen an OoB for the British at El Al that included anything heavier than the 4.5s and 5.5s in a couple of Med Regts (7th, 64th, and 69th from memory)

David W · Post by **David W** » 12 Jul 2006 01:41

Derek Barton has them in N.A in December 1941.

?? !! ??

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 12 Jul 2006 02:38

David W wrote:Derek Barton has them in N.A in December 1941.

?? !! ??

Yeah, I saw that. He also has them as part of 1st Army at that date, so ... ? I'm assuming "Dec 41" is a typo for "Dec 42".

Edit to point out that Barton and Evans show basically the same info, i.e. England then 1st Army/1AGRA, with the exception of the Dec 41 date. That is a good part of the reason why I think Barton has the typo here, not Evans.

David W · Post by **David W** » 12 Jul 2006 07:50

Good logic.