Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

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EugE
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Re: Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

Post by EugE » 06 Apr 2021 18:23

stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
Yes, 3 armies. Already mentioned the 27th, 53rd, and 47th. Of those only two had mechanized or tank corps and all combined had 400 AFVs between all three armies.
I'm sorry but I have to upset you: you don't pointed 4 g.A, 2 reserve A, 46 A. 5 air A, 37 A arrived in July.
Altogether in June the Steppe Front had 1728 tanks and shortage of 300 tanks.

You loose: 1 MC, 2 MC, 3 g.MC, 3 g.TC, 4 g.TC, independent tbr. and tank regiment.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
Meanwhile the Germans had a fresh panzer corps in reserve they could have brought in if Manstein had his way, which included the 5th SS division which was larger than a traditional Heer panzergrenadier division, so quite a bit more powerful and able to hold a longer front while also being fresh and full strength.
You wishful thinking? Check please condition of the XXIV PzK - you will be surprised.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
The 27th army would be the only one in position to potentially threaten the II SS Panzer Corps
The 53 A was in the South from Prokhorovka, the 47 A moved to this area. Units of Steppe front began moving around July 10.
You do not take into account the 5 g.A and 5 g.TA armies, in vain, they were battered but quite combat-ready.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
especially against a SS PC that was barely dented from that fight.
You are slightly exaggerating the results of Prokhorovka.
Look for it and you will find it...

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stg 44
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Re: Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

Post by stg 44 » 06 Apr 2021 22:33

EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
Yes, 3 armies. Already mentioned the 27th, 53rd, and 47th. Of those only two had mechanized or tank corps and all combined had 400 AFVs between all three armies.
I'm sorry but I have to upset you: you don't pointed 4 g.A, 2 reserve A, 46 A. 5 air A, 37 A arrived in July.
What date? And just because they were assigned doesn't mean they were present or able to fight during Citadel. Glantz does not mention they were available during the fighting and he has extensive Orbats for Citadel as well as discussion about Soviet reserves of the Steppe Front.

Russian wikipedia says only the 27th, 47th, and 53rd were part of Steppe Front in July during Citadel:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1 ... 0%BD%D1%82

Those other armies you list only showed up in August or September.
EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
Altogether in June the Steppe Front had 1728 tanks and shortage of 300 tanks.
Source? And what units did it have in June?
EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
You loose: 1 MC, 2 MC, 3 g.MC, 3 g.TC, 4 g.TC, independent tbr. and tank regiment.
Which were assigned to which armies?
EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
Meanwhile the Germans had a fresh panzer corps in reserve they could have brought in if Manstein had his way, which included the 5th SS division which was larger than a traditional Heer panzergrenadier division, so quite a bit more powerful and able to hold a longer front while also being fresh and full strength.
You wishful thinking? Check please condition of the XXIV PzK - you will be surprised.
You have a source or link you can share that shows what you mean?
EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
The 27th army would be the only one in position to potentially threaten the II SS Panzer Corps
The 53 A was in the South from Prokhorovka, the 47 A moved to this area. Units of Steppe front began moving around July 10.
I am aware I have Glantz's Kursk book with maps showing where they were on the 15th of July.
EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
You do not take into account the 5 g.A and 5 g.TA armies, in vain, they were battered but quite combat-ready.
I very much did, they were smashed and would locked in with 5th SS and 17th panzer division and III PC. Battered and combat ready aren't really synonymous.
EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
especially against a SS PC that was barely dented from that fight.
You are slightly exaggerating the results of Prokhorovka.
Did you read the articles that started this thread? Sounds like you didn't.

EugE
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Posts: 250
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Re: Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

Post by EugE » 07 Apr 2021 14:28

stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33

What date? And just because they were assigned doesn't mean they were present or able to fight during Citadel. Glantz does not mention they were available during the fighting and he has extensive Orbats for Citadel as well as discussion about Soviet reserves of the Steppe Front.

Russian wikipedia says only the 27th, 47th, and 53rd were part of Steppe Front in July during Citadel:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1 ... 0%BD%D1%82

Those other armies you list only showed up in August or September.
Seriously? Russian Wikipedia is your source
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33
1.Source? 2.And what units did it have in June?
1.TsAMO 14A, 116, 1, pg. 117.
2. :wink: 1 MC, 2 MC, 3 g.MC, 3 g.TC, 4 g.TC, 10 TC, 18 TC, independent tbr. and tank regiment + 5 g.TA.

stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33
Which were assigned to which armies?
1 MC to 53 A, 2 MC to 3 TA, 3 g.MC to 47 A, 3 g.TC to 4 g.A, 4 g.TC to 27 A, 10 TC to 5 g.A, 18 TC to 5 g.TA.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
You have a source or link you can share that shows what you mean?
NARA T314 R (in one of the follow) 720/722/727.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
I am aware I have Glantz's Kursk book with maps showing where they were on the 15th of July.
:wink:
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
I very much did, they were smashed and would locked in with 5th SS and 17th panzer division and III PC. Battered and combat ready aren't really synonymous.
XXIV PzK consisted of 23 PzDiv. and mot. SS-Wiking.(NARA T314 R720/722/727.)
EugE wrote:
06 Apr 2021 18:23
Did you read the articles that started this thread? Sounds like you didn't.
:wink:
Look for it and you will find it...

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stg 44
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Re: Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

Post by stg 44 » 07 Apr 2021 15:39

EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33

What date? And just because they were assigned doesn't mean they were present or able to fight during Citadel. Glantz does not mention they were available during the fighting and he has extensive Orbats for Citadel as well as discussion about Soviet reserves of the Steppe Front.

Russian wikipedia says only the 27th, 47th, and 53rd were part of Steppe Front in July during Citadel:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1 ... 0%BD%D1%82

Those other armies you list only showed up in August or September.
Seriously? Russian Wikipedia is your source
Considering you haven't provided a link to source any of your claims yet, you don't have any place to complain.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33
1.Source? 2.And what units did it have in June?
1.TsAMO 14A, 116, 1, pg. 117.
2. :wink: 1 MC, 2 MC, 3 g.MC, 3 g.TC, 4 g.TC, 10 TC, 18 TC, independent tbr. and tank regiment + 5 g.TA.
5th GTA was already committed to battle as were several of those other units assigned in June, so by July 15th they weren't in Steppe Front as a reserve.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33
Which were assigned to which armies?
1 MC to 53 A,
4 g.TC to 27 A
I already talked about both of those.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
3 g.MC to 47 A,
Put into a blocking position behind the 69th army after that army had lost much of its equipment, especially its anti-tank guns.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
3 g.TC to 4 g.A,
In STAVKA reserve and not present in the area even if later assigned to Steppe Front; it was assigned, removed during the battle, and then reassigned after the battle.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
10 TC to 5 g.A,
18 TC to 5 g.TA.
Both already committed to battle by July 12th
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
You have a source or link you can share that shows what you mean?
NARA T314 R (in one of the follow) 720/722/727.
Got a screen shot since most of us don't have access to said roll?
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
I am aware I have Glantz's Kursk book with maps showing where they were on the 15th of July.
:wink:
Ok?
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
I very much did, they were smashed and would locked in with 5th SS and 17th panzer division and III PC. Battered and combat ready aren't really synonymous.
XXIV PzK consisted of 23 PzDiv. and mot. SS-Wiking.(NARA T314 R720/722/727.)
17th and 23rd Panzer and 5th SS. 23rd Panzer was to be left behind on the Mius front.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
Did you read the articles that started this thread? Sounds like you didn't.
:wink:
So that's a no.

EugE
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Re: Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

Post by EugE » 12 May 2021 06:25

I am sorry for delay

First of all I want to clear the question with 5 gA & 5 gTA:
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
You do not take into account the 5 g.A and 5 g.TA armies, in vain, they were battered but quite combat-ready.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
I very much did, they were smashed and would locked in with 5th SS and 17th panzer division and III PC. * Battered and combat ready aren't really synonymous.
5 g.TA 42 901 manpower, Guns 324, mortars 439(before get into battle).
The common Human losses during July 12 were 3908, from them KIA & MIA 1827.
The common Human losses during the month of July were 10545, from them KIA 2780, WIA 6465, MIA 1079.

5 g.Army 97 865 manpower, Guns 708(64 from them are AA Guns), mortars 1145(before get into battle).
The common Human losses during the month of July were 23784, from them KIA 4888, WIA 16981, MIA 1070.
The 5 g.Army has participated in fights from July 11, continue the counteroffensive in August Army has only around 6000 manpower replacements.

* I meant that Armies had had losses but not loose the combat readiness.

THE OTHER SOVIET FORCES

Just to make sure their position had plenty of depth, the Soviets also had the 27th, 47th and 53rd Armies moving to better positions in case of a breakthrough. The 27th Army, consisting of six divisions and a tank brigade, started moving west on the 6th, having originally been designated for operations on the north side of the Kursk salient. It had completed a march to Maloarkhangelsk when it received orders on the 9th to move to the Kursk region and occupy defenses in the Kursk Fortified Region. Also there was the 4 g.Tank Corps, which was originally around Staraya Veduga (well east of Kursk), and had moved north through the 27th Army positions and by the end of the 9th was in the Maloarkhangelsk area. The 4 g.TC then moved south to Kursk and on 11 July, was located in the area between Oboyan and Kursk. Meanwhile the 27th Army, following a similar route, would arrive at Kursk on the 14th.

The 47th Army, with six divisions, which was located behind the Southwestern Front in the area of Olkhovatka, Krivonosovka and Kamenka, began moving the night of 8 July to the northwest and by the 14/15th of July was concentrating in the area of Korocha. The 3 g.MC began moving at 14:00 on 10 July and also ended up concentrating around Korocha with the 47th Army.

Between the 5th Guards Army and the 27th Army was the 53rd Army of seven divisions, which was occupying the Steppe Front’s defensive line along the Kshen River. On the morning of the 9th it was ordered to advance to the Front defensive line along the Seim River with three divisions. By 23:00 on the 12th of July it had occupied the line along the Seim River from Nechayevo to Bukino. This was a line of about 40 kilometers in length. It was supported by the 1 Mechanized Corps, which moved from its position around Nizhnedevitsk (well east of Kursk) at 09:00 on 7 July, moved through the 53rd Army’s positions and then south, where it held on the Seim River. This was a significant force now located within 40 kilometers of the current front line.

Effectively the Soviets had another line of forces forming, consisting of three more armies, each supported by a tank or mechanized corps, with the 27th Army north of Oboyan covering Kursk; the 53rd Army covering the Seim River behind Prokhorovka; and the 47th Army covering Korocha. In light of the 5 g.Army bringing up its division’s strengths by hundreds of men in the days just before battle, and its shortfalls in transports and sometimes small arms, the state of these units would not be expected to be any better.

The 4 g.Army had also started unloading in the region of Kastornoye, due east of Kursk, around the 12th, adding a potential reserve behind this newly forming echelon. Furhtermore, the Soviets had other forces available, including the 3, 5 and 7 g.Cavalry Corps in the area behind the Southwestern Front.

27th Army - 54 116 manpower. Guns 293 + 290 AT, mortars 847.
4 g.TC 142 Т-34 , 70 Mk III, 1 Т-70. Staff 10259. 1451 Sfl.AR. 16 SU-122. 93 TBr 28 Т-34 & 21 Т-70, 39 TR 32 Т-34 & 7 Т-70.

47th Army - 68 750 manpower. Guns 655, mortars 1152.
3 g.MC 164 Т-34, 49 Т-70.

53rd Army - 91 195 manpower.
34 TR 22 Mk II "Matilda", 17 Mk III "Valentine",
35TR 7 Mk II "Matilda", 32 Mk III "Valentine",

1 MC 166 Т-34 ,47 Т-70. Manpower 14 291.
61 g. TR. 21 КV 1S
148 TR. 37 T 34, 6 T 70, 1 Т 60.
1548 Sfl.AR. 1 КV 1S, 12 SU-152.

2 MC 131 Т-34, 49 Т-70. - 14.07.43 send to Brjanskiy Front included into 3 g.TA
5 MC 1 Т-34, 81 Mk II "Matilda", 138 Mk III "Valentine", - 12.07.43 send to West Front.


4th g.Army - 65 566 manpower.
3 g.TC. - Т-34 130, Т-70 63. 1436 Sfl.AR. 8 SU-76, 12 SU-122.

stg 44 wrote:
07 Apr 2021 15:39
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33

What date? And just because they were assigned doesn't mean they were present or able to fight during Citadel. Glantz does not mention they were available during the fighting and he has extensive Orbats for Citadel as well as discussion about Soviet reserves of the Steppe Front.
Russian wikipedia says only the 27th, 47th, and 53rd were part of Steppe Front in July during Citadel:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1 ... 0%BD%D1%82
Those other armies you list only showed up in August or September.
Seriously? Russian Wikipedia is your source
Considering you haven't provided a link to source any of your claims yet, you don't have any place to complain.
Steppe reserve District - operations record book.
TsAMO F 240.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 22:33
1.Source? 2.And what units did it have in June?
1.TsAMO 14A, 116, 1, pg. 117.
2. :wink: 1 MC, 2 MC, 3 g.MC, 3 g.TC, 4 g.TC, 10 TC, 18 TC, independent tbr. and tank regiment + 5 g.TA.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
5th GTA was already committed to battle as were several of those other units assigned in June, so by July 15th they weren't in Steppe Front as a reserve.
(Why July 15? :?)

Also I fast look into Steppe reserve District - operations record book and found next:
2 MC has been into SF possession until July 14, from 14 it began to move to the Brjanskiy Front where was included into 3 g.TA
5 MC has been into SF possession until July 12, from 12 it began to move to the West Front.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
You have a source or link you can share that shows what you mean?
NARA T314 R (in one of the follow) 720/722/727.
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
Got a screen shot since most of us don't have access to said roll?
0249.jpg
0250.jpg
0251.jpg
stg 44 wrote:
06 Apr 2021 15:35
the 5th SS division which was larger than a traditional Heer panzergrenadier division, so quite a bit more powerful and able to hold a longer front while also being fresh and full strength.
EugE wrote:
07 Apr 2021 14:28
You wishful thinking? Check please condition of the XXIV PzK - you will be surprised.
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Last edited by EugE on 12 May 2021 14:22, edited 2 times in total.
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EugE
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Re: Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

Post by EugE » 12 May 2021 06:35

Continue:
316-4.JPG
316-3.JPG
Now you can see that Wiking has only five battalions, not full strength, Aufklärung Abt. consisted of three kompanie (them must be five, at least, ~ 1000 manpower), PzRgt Stab with II. Abteilung forming at ALTNEUHAUS training area in Germany. The III/SS-PzGrRgt Germania begins forming as SPW in Germany training area.

23 PzD & SS-Wiking
0270.jpg
0272.jpg
0274.jpg
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EugE
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Re: Citadel, Prokhorovka and Kharkov: The armoured losses of the II SS Panzer Korps

Post by EugE » 12 May 2021 06:39

more:
0275.jpg
0276.jpg
0278.jpg
0242.jpg
0300.jpg
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