Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 04 Feb 2009 14:03

According to calculations of Polish Ministry of National Defense from October of 1944, Polish casualties in combats against the Soviet forces were 20,000 killed or wounded - which is at least around 10% of all Polish casualties during the Polish Defensive War of 1939.

Ukrainian Front reported capturing 394,498 prisoners (or 394,334 according to different data) and - among other equipment - at least 291,183 rifles, 28,510 pistols, at least 3,731 heavy machine guns, etc.

Belorussian Front reported capturing 60,202 prisoners (I don't have any info about captured equipment).

According to record data in all cemeteries there are 67,177 Polish soldiers & officers who lost their lives in September and October of 1939 (or died of wounds later), resting in peace.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 16 Feb 2009 11:31

Can anyone translate what is written there? Whose grave is it? Where were they KIA?

Image

And:

http://land.heim.at/podersdorf/220992/fotoid44polen.htm

"Russischer Heldenfriedhof Galizien 17.10.1939":

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Photo by Adolf Kaipel:

http://members.aon.at/dbundsch/kaipeladolf22.htm

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 15 Mar 2009 15:52

Interesting website:
This section offers a very incomplete list of some of the soldiers who perished in battle or in captivity at the hands of the invading Soviet forces, NKWD or collaborators, during September and October of 1939.
http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id20.html

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 Apr 2009 22:21

Soviet war song - Poland 1939:



And video from the Soviet Invasion of Poland 1939:



A Soviet political officer WIA in combat against the Polish Army - 1939:

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 May 2009 14:23

Polish veteran - older rifleman Ignacy Wachowiak - from V. (spare) battalion of 56. Infantry Regiment speaks about destruction of his battalion by Soviet tanks near Monasterzyska (former Tarnopolskie Voivodeship, today in Ukraine), during its withdrawal to Romanian Bridgehead - Polish Campaign, 1939:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monasterzyska

His battalion was ordered to march to Romanian Bridgehead. But the Soviet Invasion of Poland took place. Soviet tanks were already waiting for them near Monasterzyska. Battalion was surrounded by Soviet tanks - he says that one officer - probably commander - was KIA, but he is not sure if this officer was commander of the battalion or commander of some company / platoon:



He also says that he participated in capturing Zaolzie in Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Here the same Polish veteran - older rifleman Ignacy Wachowiak - says about horrible conditions in Soviet POW camp:



There was only one well with water for each 12,500 POWs, there were no beds, no blankets and one small room for each 25 POWs to sleep and live in it. They had to sleep on the floor.

He didn't know the name of this camp, he only knew that the camp was located to the north-east from the place where he was captured (Monasterzyska) - they were transported there by train - in animal carriages.

There were 88 storeyed huts in the camp - each hut for around 600 "slaves" - 24 rooms in a hut.

He was in the hut no. 24.

Food was also horrible - small rations and it was often bad. Mainly grits and fish soups.

Russians were not even allowing them to sleep - at midnight they were awaking them and controlling their documents.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Othon » 12 May 2009 13:58

Don't change many threads here in your own video-blog, Mr Domen. If no one wants to discuss with you, leave such thread untouched.

PS. If you show us materials about horrible Soviet POW camps you should also provide informations about Polish concentration camp in Bereza Kartuska founded in 1934 by dictator Pilsudski - patterned upon Nazi and Soviet camps and suggested by Göring during his visit to Poland. Almost all "unreliable people" were imprisoned there including entire political opposition spectrum, many national minorities, communists, common criminals etc. Their number raised to several thousands in 1939. They were forced to hard and often unproductive labor and also tortured. According to Ukrainian historian Viktor Idzio, several hundred prisoners died in various ways (murdered, tortured to death, shot during escape, died from untreated diseases etc.)

[Sources:

- P. Siekanowski, "Obóz odosobnienia w Berezie Kartuskiej 1934-1939", Warszawa 1991.

- Сергій КРИЧИЛЬСЬКИЙ "Союз нацистської Німеччини і диктаторської Польщі" - http://observer.sd.org.ua/news.php?id=620

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_prison

- http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miejsce_Od ... Kartuskiej]

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 12 May 2009 16:28

Bereza Kartuska was neither better nor worse than American prison near Guantanamo.

The only difference was that Bereza Kartuska - "founded by dictator Pilsudski" - does not exist since 1939, and Guantanamo prison - "founded by dictator George Bush" - still exists...
If you show us materials about horrible Soviet POW camps you should also provide informations about Polish
Sorry but I am not able to provide info about all of world's terrible camps in just one post... :roll:

Bereza Kartuska is an Off-Topic in this thread - Soviet POW camps are not.

So please if you want to discuss about Bereza Kartuska - establish a new thread.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Othon » 15 May 2009 12:49

Bereza Kartuska was neither better nor worse than American prison near Guantanamo.
Absolutely false comparison! Firstly US do not jail in Guantanamo their own citizens but foreign terrorists. Secondly US are in a state of war with international terrorist network. Nothing similar can be applied to pre-war Poland's situation in the Bereza context. Simply Pilsudski's regime copied the worst example of Nazi's behavior at that time. It could be described only as a proof of internal decomposition of pre-war Poland. Only such extreme measures could quarrel political opposition, peasantry and national minorities which demanded more political rights, autonomy and better living standards. Unfortunately sanacja dictatorship could not meet these demands due to its overall incompetence. So only more and more hard prosecutions could work for a time being.
Bereza Kartuska is an Off-Topic in this thread - Soviet POW camps are not.
This topic is very suitable in this thread because it was the Red Army which liberated Bereza concentration camp after 17th September! :lol:

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 15 May 2009 13:43

Firstly US do not jail in Guantanamo their own citizens but foreign terrorists.
It seems that you don't know anything about Guantanamo prison. Americans imprisoned a lot of innocent people - mostly American citizens - in Guantanamo, without any judical sentence - just because they were "unreliable".

You also don't know anything about terrorists - you don't know that terrorists in the USA are being recruited mostly from US citizens, not from foreigners. Similar situation is in Europe.
Nothing similar can be applied to pre-war Poland's situation in the Bereza context.
There were a lot of illegal terrorist, separatist and communist radical organizations in pre-war Poland - mostly Ukrainian organizations.
it was the Red Army which liberated Bereza concentration camp after 17th September! :lol:
Othon, who are you and where are you from?

Are you "Homo sovieticus"? Are you from the modern times or do you still live in the dim and ignorant Communist Era?

Do you still believe in the "Liberation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus" in 1939?

And what about the "Liberation of Ukraine" by the same USSR in years 1932 - 1933?:

Image

Liberated - free at last! Could fly to heaven!

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Artur Szulc » 15 May 2009 15:33

Othon, Domen is right, start a new thread about Bereza camp. And please, give us a short summary of Siekanowskis conclusions about the camp, with page references.
PS. If you show us materials about horrible Soviet POW camps you should also provide informations about Polish concentration camp in Bereza Kartuska founded in 1934 by dictator Pilsudski - patterned upon Nazi and Soviet camps and suggested by Göring during his visit to Poland.
This is not a adequate method of comparison. It is the same with people who can not accept that German civilians suffered during allied bombings. "Remember what the Germans did in the Camps". I mean what does that have to do with the fact that thousands and thousands German civilans suffered in fire storms created by allied bombplans?

And by the way, the Bereza camp was establised after the assassination of minister of internal affairs by a ukrainian terrorist or freedomfighter, which you prefer.

Chili

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Othon » 16 May 2009 16:35

Domen121 wrote:
Firstly US do not jail in Guantanamo their own citizens but foreign terrorists.
It seems that you don't know anything about Guantanamo prison. Americans imprisoned a lot of innocent people - mostly American citizens - in Guantanamo, without any judical sentence - just because they were "unreliable".

You also don't know anything about terrorists - you don't know that terrorists in the USA are being recruited mostly from US citizens, not from foreigners. Similar situation is in Europe.
It is quite funny you accuse me lack of knowlegde and simultaneously you prove your own ignorance. Do you really suggest al-Kaida members, Talibans and 9/11 perps were US citizens???

Guantanamo example has nothing to do with Bereza lager. However maybe I am wrong...there are rumors in mass-media that al-Kaida terrorist were also secretly jailed in Poland several years ago! Another Bereza??? :lol:
Domen121 wrote:
Nothing similar can be applied to pre-war Poland's situation in the Bereza context.
There were a lot of illegal terrorist, separatist and communist radical organizations in pre-war Poland - mostly Ukrainian organizations.
Of course! Every excuse is good to explain building concentration camp to save Pilsudski's regime in power. I can add another very dangerous "terrorist organizations" which members were jailed in Bereza: Polish Socialist Party (PPS), Polish Peasants Party (PSL/SL), National Democracy etc. :lol:
Domen121 wrote:
it was the Red Army which liberated Bereza concentration camp after 17th September!
Othon, who are you and where are you from?

Are you "Homo sovieticus"? Are you from the modern times or do you still live in the dim and ignorant Communist Era?
Don't insult me using such empty slogans and etiquettes because it seems this "modern times history" in your personification is very odd... :)
Domen121 wrote: Do you still believe in the "Liberation of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus" in 1939?
I believe in liberation of Bereza's camp prisoners by the Red Army which is basic fact.
Domen121 wrote: And what about the "Liberation of Ukraine" by the same USSR in years 1932 - 1933?:
What? As I remember it was Pilsudski who wanted to "liberate" Ukraine along with his Petlura puppet and turned it into Polish protectorate. Unfortunately Ukrainians did not want such "liberation" and thus entire Pilsudski's journey to Kiev ended as a complete failure. Moreover this stupid move cost Poland almost defeat in a war with Bolsheviks. Yeah, very brilliant move! At the end both countries signed Riga peace treaty and partitioned Ukraine and Belarus. So in 1932 Bolsheviks "liberated" Ukrainians exactly as Polish dictatorship did.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 16 May 2009 16:59

Do you really suggest al-Kaida members, Talibans and 9/11 perps were US citizens???
Since 9/11 many years have passed and many things have changed - it is high time that you noticed this at last.

Have you seen "GITMO - the new rules of war" by Erik Gandini and Tarik Saleh? Good document about Guantanamo.

Btw - according to Lawrence B. Wilkerson in Guantanamo prison in March of 2009 there were only around 24 terrorists and over 220 innocent people. According to the same person in 2002 in Guantanamo there were around 800 prisoners - mostly innocent people who were being kept there without any judical sentence.
Moreover this stupid move cost Poland almost defeat in a war with Bolsheviks.
Since when brilliant victory = almost defeat?

Bolsheviks wanted to spread their revolution for the whole Europe - Polish operations in Ukraine had nothing to do with Soviet invasion of the Western World. Thus Soviet - Polish confrontation was unavoidable.
At the end both countries signed Riga peace treaty and partitioned Ukraine and Belarus.
During the Riga negotiations Bolsheviks were ready to give the whole Belarus to Poland - Poles didn't want to accept the whole Belarus because of too big percentage of minorities.
which members were jailed in Bereza: Polish Socialist Party (PPS), Polish Peasants Party (PSL/SL), National Democracy etc.
Probably for their anti-Jewish actions.
there are rumors in mass-media that al-Kaida terrorist were also secretly jailed in Poland several years ago! Another Bereza??? :lol:
Secretly jailed in Poland - but in American jail.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 12 Jun 2009 19:15

Here some info about casualties of Soviet armour in Poland in 1939:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1341371

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 15 Nov 2009 18:57

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Soviet losses in Grodno - 57 KIA, 159 WIA, 19 destroyed/damaged tanks, 4 AC.

Source - RGVA F.35086 Op.1. D.1
From the report of the commander of 15th Tank Corps, komdiv Pietrov (casualties of his Corps in Grodno):

- 27th Tank Brigade - 19 KIA, 18 MIA, 26 WIA
- 20th Motorized Brigade - 7 KIA, 20 WIA
- Mechanized Group of 16th Rifle Corps - 25 KIA, 110 WIA

Total: 51 KIA, 18 MIA (69 KIA / MIA), 156 WIA

- Mechanized Group of 6th Cavalry Corps - 6 KIA, 5 WIA =

= 75 KIA / MIA + 161 WIA

But this is not the end of the whole story, this is not even half of the whole story, because the above data does not include casualties of infantry and infantry always suffers the bulk of men losses. Apart from the above units also two infantry regiments - 119. and 110. Rifle Regiments from 5. Rifle Corps (13. and 4. Rifle Divisions) took part in the battle of Grodno. Especially 119. Rifle Regiment was involved in very heavy combats. Both regiments certainly suffered over 100 KIA and over 300 WIA, which means that total Soviet losses were at least 200 KIA + 500 WIA.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Paul_Atreides » 16 Nov 2009 16:10

Domen121 wrote: From the report of the commander of 15th Tank Corps, komdiv Pietrov (casualties of his Corps in Grodno):
What is source?
and infantry always suffers the bulk of men losses.
Or not always.
Both regiments certainly suffered over 100 KIA and over 300 WIA,
Why certainly?
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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