Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Oct 2007 21:46

Also i have a small question to you Alex - we are talking about Soviet vs Polska in general, not only in 1939 - so, do you know if any Soviet source (combat report would be best for me) gives the number of Soviet casualties suffered during the Polish-Soviet War of 1919 - 20? Or maybe at least casualties suffered by Russians in a Battle of Warsaw 16th - 25th August 1920?

If you have some reliable, Russian sources, especially combat reports from single units, or one big report which is summing up casualties of the whole Red Army, I would be grateful for any source about Soviet casualties on Polish front from 14th February 1919 to 12th October 1920.

Cheers!

Domen

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 28 Oct 2007 07:43

Domen121 wrote:Also i have a small question to you Alex - we are talking about Soviet vs Polska in general, not only in 1939 - so, do you know if any Soviet source (combat report would be best for me) gives the number of Soviet casualties suffered during the Polish-Soviet War of 1919 - 20? Or maybe at least casualties suffered by Russians in a Battle of Warsaw 16th - 25th August 1920?

If you have some reliable, Russian sources, especially combat reports from single units, or one big report which is summing up casualties of the whole Red Army, I would be grateful for any source about Soviet casualties on Polish front from 14th February 1919 to 12th October 1920.

Cheers!

Domen
Unfortunately any exact data does not exist. I did not see them in one of researches. The number Soviet POW is informed only. It is 146 thousand.

IMHO, the general losses were more than 200 thousand KIA, WIA and POW. That I can make all is to calculate number of armies for August, 1st and for September, 1st 1920. It will show some changes. Whether it is necessary?

In research Krivosheev there are figures of losses of the Soviet fronts in 1920. http://soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/chapter3_1.html
However there losses - including struggle of Civil war are considered all.

Regards.

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Rian
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Post by Rian » 29 Oct 2007 14:31

Explain to me why the Soviet sources " it is possible not the truth "? What for Soviet to say lies to itself? Losses in Polish campaign KA in militarians were low. What sense was them to diminish even more?
I wrote "maybe". I know that Soviet losses in Polish 1939 Campaign were low (becouse was no big battles and no big Polish units on polish eastern border). But in somes battles Soviet casualties can be false to cover incompetence of few commanders.

For example battle of Szack (Soviet casualties from Soviet sources was 81 - 82 KIA including 6 - 7 officers, 184 - 185 WIA - together about 260-270 soldiers). Polish casualties of Battle of Szack in Soviet sources was 700 KIA and more than 1000 MIA - together more than 1700 soldiers. In Soviet sources Soviet casualties in this battle was more than 6 times smaller than Polish. Then why Soviet commander of 52 Riffle Division was dismissed???? If You read only Soviet sources - this decision is completly incomprehensible (becouse if You read Soviet sources only - You can think that battle of Szack was great Soviet victory).

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 10 Nov 2007 11:45

Rian wrote:
Explain to me why the Soviet sources " it is possible not the truth "? What for Soviet to say lies to itself? Losses in Polish campaign KA in militarians were low. What sense was them to diminish even more?
I wrote "maybe". I know that Soviet losses in Polish 1939 Campaign were low (becouse was no big battles and no big Polish units on polish eastern border). But in somes battles Soviet casualties can be false to cover incompetence of few commanders.

For example battle of Szack (Soviet casualties from Soviet sources was 81 - 82 KIA including 6 - 7 officers, 184 - 185 WIA - together about 260-270 soldiers). Polish casualties of Battle of Szack in Soviet sources was 700 KIA and more than 1000 MIA - together more than 1700 soldiers. In Soviet sources Soviet casualties in this battle was more than 6 times smaller than Polish. Then why Soviet commander of 52 Riffle Division was dismissed???? If You read only Soviet sources - this decision is completly incomprehensible (becouse if You read Soviet sources only - You can think that battle of Szack was great Soviet victory).
The reason of dismissal of the commander of a division is known - it has lost managements of unit a division. The division has appeared is not ready to fierce resistance of the opponent. It is marked in the Soviet archival sources. 411 tank batalion has been shot in defile lakes Chornoje and Lutsemer.

Concerning to high Polish losses why is not present? Or you have the Polish archival sources for this date? Considering the Soviet technical superiority.

If to speak about POW. I already spoke, that in their number joined not only militarians, but also police, civil (if there were suspicions, that is civil guardsmen).
As a whole if to read the Soviet sources there is an impression, that Soviet unit operated unsuccessfully. However they have carried out the problem. It was small, but the victory.

Regards

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 Nov 2007 12:55

Hi Alex.

Thanks for source, i just wanted to compare what Russian sources say about Soviet casualties during the Polish-Soviet war, with numbers given by some Polish sources - number of POW is same - according to Polish sources during the Battle of Warsaw more than 66,000 Soviet soldiers were captured, around 25,000 were killed, 45,000 managed to escape to Prussia and were interned there. During the most important part of the Battle of Warsaw, over 122,000 Poles and almost 188,000 Russian soldiers took part in it.

Polish casualties were 14,500 killed, 22,000 wounded
Concerning to high Polish losses why is not present? Or you have the Polish archival sources for this date?
There is no doubt that during the battle of Wytyczno Polish side lost 93 dead (not 400 - like Soviet sources claim). There are only 93 graves of Poles who died during this battle, number 93 is also confirmed in many sources, including archival sources.
As a whole if to read the Soviet sources there is an impression, that Soviet unit operated unsuccessfully.
Soviet units were not able to reach daily targets - even units which encoutered very weak resistance were often not able to reach their targets on time...

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 08 Oct 2008 15:10

Description of the Soviet attack on Fort Tyszyca in 1939:

I have an impression that the Soviets were attacking it under the strong influence of Vodka or other alcohol (or under influence of Komissars in their rears): ??

Memories of plutonowy Józef Strączek, commander of fortification company “Tyszyca”, commander of Fort “Tyszyca”:

“… I was observing outskirts of our postion and I saw, that a big unit of Soviet soldiers is marching in a distance of around 1200 metres towards Wyręby settlement. They were going like “a herd of rams”, in long coats, some of them had got helms, some other had got sharp hats with star. Rifles – long – with “skewers”, they were marching like during military exercises - not insured at all. I ordered to open fire by HMG number 1 (short series – to try efficiency of fire); I saw that confusion started in the column, but they were continuoing their march, because units marching behind them were pressing on. I order further firing by both HMGs. The result was terrible – milling crowd and pressing on from the rears soldiers, who – not paying attention on lying soldiers – were marching on and through them.

Small unit strayed from the column and started to move in my direction towards “field / area of absolute firepower” – it was – while it ran up to the boundary of fire – literally “mowed down” by series of HMG.

While continuoing fire in some moment I heard many single artillery explosions and what I saw in outskirts was literally a slaughter – it was plutonowy, commander of the neighbouring object – with direct artillery fire he was striking the Soviet unit.”


And here something about the Soviet PoWs captured in the battles of Parczew and Milanów and Jabłoń:

After the battle of Jabłoń (29th of September 1939), Polish battalion from 82nd Infantry Regiment (60th Infantry Division “Kobryn” under command of colonel Adam Epler) captured 50 Russian PoWs – colonel Adam Epler reported:

“During investigation prisoners said that before they went on war to Poland, they had been said that they were going on military exercises. When they passed the border of Poland, they were said, that they must go on war with the Nazis. Only one day before the Soviet attack at Milanów, they were informed by their commanders, that they “are here to participate in the action against reactionary, bourgeois bands of Polish officers”.”

After investigation and taking back their weapons, the Polish commander declared, that tomorrow they will be released and they are allowed to join either to their own forces or to the Germans, who are – of course – their allies. Then, Soviet PoWs started to beg the Poles, not to send them back to their forces, and rather to let them join the Polish army.

Colonel Epler: “They were incorporated to our ranks. They were fighting in our units to the end on 6th of October 1939, they were devoted and faithful companions. Together with us they went to the German captivity and it was the moment when their real tragedy started.”


On the next day – 30th of September – in the battle of Milanów and Parczew Polish 179th Infantry Regiment captured 60 Soviet PoWs.

Sergeant T. Grzeszkiewicz relation:

“Prisoners were used as guards and drivers in our stocks, because they were afraid of coming back to their forces, despite they were offered to do this”.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Ponury » 14 Dec 2008 11:25

Polish border stones reverse - soviet border guard. September 1939 year.

http://ioh.pl/forum/download.php?id=42295

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henryk
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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by henryk » 14 Dec 2008 21:07

"radzieccy pogranicznicy przewracają polskie słupy graniczne"
Soviet Border Guards take down Polish border barrier?

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Ponury » 14 Dec 2008 21:57

Yes :)

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Ogorek » 15 Dec 2008 20:02

I believe that
"Soviet Border Guards take down Polish border posts"
is a better translation.

Cheers,
Ogorek

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Rian » 16 Dec 2008 14:20

1. Are any soviet sources about Red Army operations during second biggest battle in polish campaign (Battle of Tomaszów Lubelski 19th - 28th September 1939)?? From minimum 24th September (battle of Husynne) soviet forces fought in this battle. In soviets reports - soviet 8th Rifle Corps fought against polish 1, 5 and 41 ID.
2. Any sources about Battle of Husynne?? In this battle polish cavalary charged against Soviets. Charged 500 cavalarymen incl. reserve squadron of 14 uhlan regt., Mounted Police and divisional cavalary. In total polish force incl. very good equipped Chemical Battalion had 1500 soldiers. After bloody battle polish forces captured. According to polish sources (sorry but only wikipedia): Polish forces had 143 KIA, 139 WIA and soviet forces had 80 KIA, 113 WIA. Same day Soviets murdered 25 polish soldiers captured near village Rogalin.

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Benoit Douville » 17 Jan 2009 22:48

It interesting to note concerning the Battles between the Soviets against the Polish forces in september 1939 that the Soviet forces entering Poland numbered around 500 000, although by the end of the campaign the number stood at about 1 500 000. Most of the of the regular Polish troops normally stationed in Eastern Poland were sent west to gight the Germans, so most of the resistance was offered by several thousand soldiers of the Korpus Ochrony Pogranica (KOP-Polish Frontier Protection Corps) supplemented by a few army groups from central Poland formed with units retreating ahead of the Germans.

Source: Katyn A Crime Without Punishment by Anna Ciencala, Natalia Lebedeva and Wojciech Materski

Regards

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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 17 Jan 2009 23:28

It interesting to note concerning the Battles between the Soviets against the Polish forces in september 1939 that the Soviet forces entering Poland numbered around 500 000, although by the end of the campaign the number stood at about 1 500 000. Most of the of the regular Polish troops normally stationed in Eastern Poland were sent west to gight the Germans, so most of the resistance was offered by several thousand soldiers of the Korpus Ochrony Pogranica (KOP-Polish Frontier Protection Corps) supplemented by a few army groups from central Poland formed with units retreating ahead of the Germans.

Source: Katyn A Crime Without Punishment by Anna Ciencala, Natalia Lebedeva and Wojciech Materski

Regards
KOP was only a small part of Polish forces which were "in the East" on 17th of September.

There were much more Polish soldiers and strong Polish military units in Eastern Poland (especcialy in South-Eastern), the majority of whom (especcialy in South-Eastern areas - mainly in Romanian Bridgehead - so in areas where Ukrainian Front was operating) - unfortunately - did not put up any or almost any resistance.

And many of those units were not units which retreated there from the West, but new-formed, fresh units, which were in different - constantly increasing - levels of combat readiness (but the vast majority of them were yet able to put up at least some resistance - and didn't do it in majority of cases for different reasons).

- Ukrainian Front reported capturing 392,334 Polish POWs.
- Byelorussian Front reported capturing 60,202 Polish POWs.

Despite that, official Soviet casualty datas provide much bigger numbers of casualties for Ukrainian Front than for Belorussian Front.

Ukrainian Front suffered big casualties during the battle of Tomaszów Lubelski - which was the second biggest battle of the Polish Campaign and during which the Red Army was directly cooperating with the German forces on the battlefields and during combats against Polish forces on both tactical and strategical as well as operational level:

Some fragments on it:

Reffering to some of Russian operations in the area of Tomaszów Lubelski:
Волочиская (впоследствии Восточная) группа (командующий — комкор Ф.И.Голиков), в состав которой входили 2-й конный корпус, 17-й стрелковый корпус, 10, 24 и 38-я танковые бригады. Перед ней ставилась задача нанести 17 сентября мощный удар по польским войскам в районе Тарнополя (сейчас г. Тернополь), овладеть Езерней, Козовой, Тарнополем, выйти на следующий день в район Буска, Перемышлян, Бобрки с дальнейшей задачей овладеть Львовом. При этом предписывалось отрезать польским войскам пути отхода на запад
Reffering to the German request for help in destroying the new, strong Polish forces (divisions and brigades of the Northern Front) which were attacking them in the area of Tomaszów Lubelski (before this "overall" request the Germans asked for help in some particular operations - for example on 20.09.1939 they asked for help in combats against the Polish divisions offensive operations around Zamość):
23 сентября во Львов прибыла делегация из четырех германских офицеров, сообщивших, что западнее г. Грубешова собираются крупные силы поляков (до 3-х пехотных?, 4-х кавалерийских дивизий ?, а также артиллерия). Было сказано, что германское командование собирается нанести удар во фланг танками в северном направлении по грубешовской группировке.
Something about some of orders given by Golikov to his units:
Во всяком случае, 8-й стрелковый корпус был направлен в район Грубешова, где вступил в бой с польскими частями.
Утром 24 сентября командарм ВАГ отдал командирам 2-го конного корпуса, 10-й танковой бригады и 99-го стрелкового корпуса следующий приказ:
-«По данным немецкого командования, в районе Замостье, Томашов, Грубешов группируются крупные силы поляков. По данным Генштаба, 23.9 в районе Томашов поляки нанесли контрудар против немецких частей. 8-й с.к.
Северной группы 23.9 к исходу дня между Грубешов и Сокаль вошел в соприкосновение с неустановленными силами противника.
Приказываю: 1. 2 к.к. с 24-й т.б. к 16.00 24.9 занять район Туринка, Добросин, Жулкев, имея передовые отряды ст. Липник, Магерув, Вишинька, Велька. Вести разведку в направлениях на: Кристинополь, Белз, Угнув. При обнаружении значительных сил противника перед фронтом 8 с.к. атаковать и пленить их. Не допускать также попыток противника прорваться из указанного района на Львов, Каменка»68. Оперативная сводка за 24 сентября также отмечала, что 2-й конный корпус с 24-й бригадой после суточного отдыха был выдвинут в район Туринки, Добросина, Жулкева для оказания помощи 8-му стрелковому корпусу Северной группы, который в тот же день форсировал р. Буг и захватил Грубешов
Incomplete OdeB:
ВОЛОЧИСКАЯ АРМЕЙСКАЯ ГРУППА (комкор Филипп Голиков)
2-й кавалерийский корпус
3-я, 5-я и 14-я кавалерийские дивизии
24-я танковая бригада

17-й стрелковый корпус
96-я и 97-я стрелковые дивизии
10-я и 38-я танковые бригады

ШЕПЕТОВСКАЯ АРМЕЙСКАЯ ГРУППА (комдив Иван Советников)
8-й стрелковый корпус
45-я, 60-я и 87-я стрелковые дивизии

15-й стрелковый корпус
44-я и 81-я стрелковые дивизии
36-я танковая бригада
* В ходе реорганизации танковых войск Красной Армии в 1938 — 1939 годах было
сформировано два отдельных батальона телетанков — 217 и 152-й, входивших в состав 30 и Зб-й танковых бригад соответственно. В сентябре 1939 года 152-й батальон участвовал в «освободительном» походе в Западную Украину. Правда, тут телеуправление не применялось и телетанки действовали как обычные линейные.

КАМЕНЕЦКАЯ АРМЕЙСКАЯ ГРУППА (командарм Иван Тюленев)
4-й кавалерийский корпус
32-я и 34-я кавалерийские дивизии
26-я танковая бригада

5-й кавалерийский корпус
9-я и 16-я кавалерийские дивизии
23-я танковая бригада

25-й танковый корпус
4-я и 5-я танковые бригады
1-я мотострелковая бригада

13-й стрелковый корпус
72-я и 99-я стрелковые дивизии
Some more notes from the Soviet sources - this time the Germans asked Timoszenko for help - he sent his 8. Rifle Corps towards Hrubieszów to help the Germans in their battles against Polish divisions and brigades from the Northern Front:
23 сентября во Львов прибыла делегация из четырех германских офицеров, сообщивших, что западнее г. Грубешова собираются крупные силы поляков (до 3-х пехотных, 4-х кавалерийских дивизий, а также артиллерия). Было сказано, что германское командование собирается нанести удар во фланг танками в северном направлении по грубешовской группировке. "Одновременно предлагают, - указывал комдив Иванов в донесении командующему КОВО,- чтобы мы участвовали в совместном уничтожении данной группировки. Штаб немецких войск находится в Грудек-Ягельонский, куда просим выслать нашу делегацию".
На документе Тимошенко написал: "Подобное для разговоров в большом штабе, но не для меня". Видимо, в "большом штабе" идея германского командования о совместной операции нашла благожелательный отклик.
Во всяком случае, 8-й стрелковый корпус был направлен в район Грубешова, где вступил в бой с польскими частями. Утром 24 сентября командарм ВАГ отдал командирам 2-го конного корпуса, 10-й танковой бригады и 99-го стрелкового корпуса следующий приказ: "По данным немецкого командования, в районе Замостье, Томашов, Грубешов группируются крупные силы поляков. По данным Генштаба, 23.9 в районе Томашов поляки нанесли контрудар против немецких частей. 8-й с.к. Северной группы 23.9 к исходу дня между Грубешов и Сокаль вошел в соприкосновение с неустановленными силами противника.
Приказываю:
- 2 к.к. с 24-й т.б. к 16.00 24.9 занять район Туринка, Добросин, Жулкев, имея передовые отряды ст. Липник, Магерув, Вишинька, Велька. Вести разведку в направлениях на: Кристинополь, Белз, Угнув.
При обнаружении значительных сил противника перед фронтом 8 с.к. атаковать и пленить их. Не допускать также попыток противника прорваться из указанного района на Львов, Каменка". Оперативная сводка за 24 сентября также отмечала, что 2-й конный корпус с 24-й бригадой после суточного отдыха был выдвинут в район Туринки, Добросина, Жулкева для оказания помощи 8-му стрелковому корпусу Северной группы, который в тот же день форсировал р. Буг и захватил Грубешов69.
Another episode from the battle of Tomaszów Lubelski - some combats between the Soviet armoured forces and Polish 10. ID and Kresowa Cavalry Brigade:
21.09 bitwa z oddziałami polskimi pod Siedliszczami; w nocy 21/22.09 walki na trasach idących z Chełma na południe, w kierunku Skierbieszowa i Wojsławic (walki z łódzką 10 DP i Kresową BK - jeńców z Łodzi sowieci odsyłali do obozu w Legionowie)
And here some quotations on it from my posts in another thread in this forum:
Such an option was possible due to resolutions which were established in paragraph 5. of the "Top-secret protocol of establishments between people's komissar of defence of USSR and representatives of the German High Command".

The full text of the paragraph 5. of this protocol is (my translation):

"If the German representatives are asking the Red Army command for help in destroying Polish military units or bands [...], Red Army commands (leaders of marching columns) in accordance to the need, will give at the disposal [of the German Army], forces necessary to destroy obstacles located along the route of the German units."

"Top-secret protocol of establishments between people's komissar of defence of USSR and representatives of the German High Command" was prepared during long-lasting discussions and negotiations which lasted from 16:20 on 20th of September and ended on 21st of September at 4:00.

The protocol was signed from the German side by: Generalleutnant Kostring, Oberst Aschenbrenner, Oberstleutnant in General Headquarters Krebs. From the Soviet side it was signed by Kliment Voroshilov and Boris Shaposhnikov.

One of examples of such kind of German-Soviet co-operation is the Soviet combat action of Separated Group from the Soviet 44. Rifle Division (the majority of this division) which was sent to eliminate the Polish units in the area Krasnobród on 26th of September. The Soviet group was attacked towards Krasnobród due to the German request and was subordinated to the German command during that mission.

Soviet primary source which mentions about that action is RGWA, 35084-1-24, k. 57.

Rossijskij gosudarstwiennyj wojennyj archiw (RGWA), 35084-1-24, k. 57.
Events of Zamość - 20.09.1939 (there are some controversions around these particular events which allegedly happened on that day - which are being discussed in Polish dws forum. It is shure that such events happened in Zamość but it is not certain if it really was on 20.09 or later):
VII Armee Korps – 20th of September 1939:

“Military Support”:

When units of Polish army were pressing forward to the west from the region of fierce fighting near Łabunie, and seriously disrupted withdrawal of the division towards the first German-Soviet demarcationline, Corps sent one of artillery commanders to Russians as an envoy. He had to send them greetings and establish contact [with Russian forces].

At the entrance to the city of Zamość waited a horseman in civilian clothes with red band on arm: Pole in Russian service. Overtaking in gallop the German envoys, he led them to the Russian headquarters, located in high, bright-white city hall in Zamość.

"High, bright-white" City Hall in Zamość (modern-day photo):

Image

[…] [In Russian headquarters located in high, bright-white city hall in Zamość] [German] Colonel pass on printed in Russian language welcoming speech [to the Russians]. [Russian] Komissar reads it carefully, as an answer he expresses deep gratitude, he adds however, that [the main] headquarters of the Russian Corps is located not in Zamość, but in a village, 3 hours away from Zamość.

[…] After friendly goodbye, several Russian officers in cars accompanied the Germans [in way from Zamość] to the general [of the Russian Corps].

Characteristic for the new friendship is an event from the passage route. That is, when it started to rain, Russians immediately in a pleasant way invited German envoys to take seats in their roofed cars.

[…] Young, fair-haired [Russian] officer welcomes German officers and leads them to the general. Welcome is warm. [Russian] Commander yet in his first words voices his joy because of signing the German-Russian pact. He has full understanding for [German] request on military support [of the Russian side]. He promises [to give] every realisable help [to the Germans].

[…] Afterwards, the general invites German colonel and his companions for a meal. But before, after an animated discussion, people went to the dining room, the Russian commander clasped both his hands in grip and said:

"Russia and Germany go together, this is a guarantee of peace for Europe!" […]”

Image

Description under the photo says:

“Region of Zamość, 20th of September 1939: discussion of a situation in Soviet headquarters of the Corps.”
Even though the Soviets reached eastern outskirts of Lwów during the night of 18./19. September, transport across the city was still open (all German attempts of cutting Lwów off from the rest of the Polish territory which was controled by the Poles failed).

Only in the morning of 19th of September three more evacuation trains (which were going to Romanian Bridgehead) crossed Lwów. These were three evacuation trains from Radom, Starachowice and Dęblin. They arrived to Lwów across Dublany and Kamionka Strumiłowa. Only those three trains were transporting - among other things - 4 AA guns 40mm, 12,000 rifles, 2,000 heavy machine guns, 4,000 light machine guns, 5,000 pistols, huge amounts of ammunition of different calibres and hand grenades.

Those three more evacuation trains crossed Lwów but never reached their targets because during further route they were captured by the Soviet forces.
Quotation from the post by Richard Hargreaves from the same thread:
Russian riders galloped into Malechow, just beyond Zboiska, riding past the Jäger occupying the village, waving as they went. A Soviet lieutenant climbed down off his horse and greeted the senior German officer with a hearty handshake and 200 cigarettes. ‘Germanski und Bolshewiki zusammen stark,’ he proclaimed in broken German. Together Germans and Bolsheviks strong. ‘He couldn’t speak any more German,’ one Hauptmann recalled, ‘but his sentiments were clear.’ [Hauptmann Wehnert, ‘Bericht über den Einsatz der 2 Kompanie vor Lemberg’ in Das Gebirgsjäger Regiment 99 im polnischen Feldzug, p.98]

andrus
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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by andrus » 18 Jan 2009 01:38

Domen121 wrote:Reffering to the German request for help in destroying the new, strong Polish forces (divisions and brigades of the Northern Front) which were attacking them in the area of Tomaszów Lubelski (before this "overall" request the Germans asked for help in some particular operations - for example on 20.09.1939 they asked for help in combats against the Polish divisions offensive operations around Zamość):
23 сентября во Львов прибыла делегация из четырех германских офицеров, сообщивших, что западнее г. Грубешова собираются крупные силы поляков (до 3-х пехотных?, 4-х кавалерийских дивизий ?, а также артиллерия). Было сказано, что германское командование собирается нанести удар во фланг танками в северном направлении по грубешовской группировке.
Quoted text says: "On 23.Sept 4 German officers arrived. They told that in west from Grubesov there are assembling large Polish forces. [...] Germans are about to strike with tanks into their flank in northern direction." Not a single word about germans asking help on 20.Sept.
Some more notes from the Soviet sources - this time the Germans asked Timoszenko for help - he sent his 8. Rifle Corps towards Hrubieszów to help the Germans in their battles against Polish divisions and brigades from the Northern Front:
23 сентября во Львов прибыла делегация из четырех германских офицеров, сообщивших, что западнее г. Грубешова собираются крупные силы поляков (до 3-х пехотных, 4-х кавалерийских дивизий, а также артиллерия). Было сказано, что германское командование собирается нанести удар во фланг танками в северном направлении по грубешовской группировке. "Одновременно предлагают, - указывал комдив Иванов в донесении командующему КОВО,- чтобы мы участвовали в совместном уничтожении данной группировки. Штаб немецких войск находится в Грудек-Ягельонский, куда просим выслать нашу делегацию".
Same text is quoted again, but this time larger amount, so one can see root for claim about germans asking help: "At the same time germans propose that soviets participate in destroying of that group."

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 18 Jan 2009 03:31

Not a single word about germans asking help on 20.Sept.
About Germans asking for help on 20th of September near Zamość there are some words in fragment from VII Armee Korps about the Soviet-German meeting near Zamość (3 hours from Zamość in some village - maybe our Russian forum friends can help in establishing where exactly it was?), in Soviet headquarters of the Corps (maybe they can also help in establishing which exactly Corps it was?):
Young, fair-haired [Russian] officer welcomes German officers and leads them to the general. Welcome is warm. [Russian] Commander yet in his first words voices his joy because of signing the German-Russian pact. He has full understanding for [German] request on military support [of the Russian side]. He promises [to give] every realisable help [to the Germans].

[…] Afterwards, the general invites German colonel and his companions for a meal. But before, after an animated discussion, people went to the dining room, the Russian commander clasped both his hands in grip and said:

"Russia and Germany go together, this is a guarantee of peace for Europe!" […]”
This particular fragment which you quoted is reffering to German requests on 23rd of September, not on 20th of September.
"At the same time germans propose that soviets participate in destroying of that group."
Yes, but these requests are from 23rd of September, not 20th of September. Read carefully.
Grubesov
The Soviets called it Grubesov.

It is about Hrubieszów:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrubiesz%C3%B3w
Germans are about to strike with tanks into their flank in northern direction.
The Panzer strike in Northern direction (from the south - from the area of Rawa Ruska) against the Polish flank (Combined Division of general Jerzy Wołkowicki formed from 13. Infantry Brigade, 19. Infantry Brigade and Group of Ocetkiewicz - total 12 infantry battalions and 36 field guns) was already carried out during the day of 23rd of September. The whole 2nd Panzer-Division (with about 60 remaining operational tanks which it had got) attacked in two groups in directions:

First group:

Panzer-Regiment 3. - with support of the whole divisional artillery and part of divisional motorized infantry - was attacking along the route: hill 302, forested area N-E from location Zawada, village Jarczów, location Przewolka, road Wereszczyca - Tomaszów, turning to the East towards Podlodów, across the hill 269 north from location Pomiary, Kolonia Podlodów, hill 248, region between Kolonia Podlodów and Podlodów. Recon platoon was sent from Kolonia Podlodów towards Kolonia Hubinek, later towards Rzeczyca (together with divisional Kradschutzen Abteilung).

II./P-R 3. captured around 100 POWs during that day, a few modern AA guns, several cars and trucks.

Second group:

Panzer-Regiment 4. with support of the rest of divisional infantry - was attacking to the left (so to the West) from P-R 3., very close to it, along almost the same route.

Result:

The Germans surprised the Polish 19th Infantry Brigade (2 regiments with 4 infantry battalions and one battery of light field artillery with 4 howitzers) and forced its headquarters (in location Zimno) to withdraw. As the result of it commander - płk. Korkozowicz - lost contact with his units and when the brigade was forced to withdraw, it was partially dispersed (one of brigade's regiment withdrawed to the North and joined to Group "Kowel" of płk. Koc and the other regiment withdrawed to the South and joined to Group "Dubno" of płk. Hanka-Kulesza). Group of Ocetkiewicz (two guard battalions, two batteries of motorized heavy artillery) was dispersed and partially crushed. Guard battalion of major Gabryel from Group of Ocetkiewicz was crushed.

13th Infantry Brigade was also attacked by the Germans but it held its ground.

After initial succeses the German attack had to be stopped and their forces withdrawed back.

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