Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 05 Aug 2007 16:37

I just wonder if Russian sources mention about the fact the Soviet soldiers ran over a group of Polish teen scouts with tanks after the battle of Grodno. The Soviet soldiers were irritated the scouts had destroyed many Soviet tanks during the battle.

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ToKu
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Post by ToKu » 06 Aug 2007 20:37

Domen 121 check Your sources.

I belive there was a kind of anti Polish "uprising" in Grodno well before main fights, but after Soviet invasion. 18th of September would fit exactly. Tommorow or the day after I will reach the book and name source.

But it surely happened as I remember long disscussion on events in Grodno in other, non active forum.

I also belive that the information You gave in another topic (why France fall so fast), that in 1939 90 % of Grodno's inhabitants were Poles is correct only if You count Jews as Poles (Jews made almost half of pre war Grodno's inhabitants). But if You do then why not to count Bellorussians as Poles? Grodno would probably have 99+% of Polish inhabitants then.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 07 Aug 2007 10:55

I belive there was a kind of anti Polish "uprising" in Grodno well before main fights, but after Soviet invasion. 18th of September would fit exactly
It was not in Grodno but in Skidel, big village many kilometers from Grodno - after this anti Polish "uprising" Polish units from Grodno organized an expedition to punish rebels

Try to read this:

http://www1.forum-znak.org.pl/artykul.p ... 0605&lang=
Do wystąpień przeciwko organom państwa polskiego doszło w miejscowościach położonych w promieniu kilkudziesięciu kilometrów od Grodna i przybrały one różne formy. W niektórych przypadkach można niewątpliwie mówić o elemencie dywersji ze strony Związku Radzieckiego, którego agenci posługiwali się miejscowymi komunistami.
In Grodno itself, nothing happened on 18. September - it was in Grodno district, but not in the city itself
90 % of Grodno's inhabitants were Poles is correct
Yes, I was wrong that 90% Grodno inhabitants were Poles in 1939 - only 60% were Poles, another 37% were Jews, and 3% were Lithuanians and Belarusians. But i think that many of Grodno Jews were feeling also to be Poles, not only to be Jews - Judaism was their religion, but as a nation they were not only Jews but also Poles - Polish Jews - we can say. Many of them were patriots and they knew that their motherland is Poland. Many of them were young and were born in Poland - many of them had Polish friends - Karol Wojtyła - John Paul II - he had many Jewish friends when he was young, and many of them were Polish patriots.

There was also another group - radical Jews - they were feeling only to be Jews and many of them didnt like or even hate Poles (and some Poles hate such Jews). There were also some communist Jews as well as some communist Poles which were collaborating with Soviets from first day of war to the end.

Many Jews were fighting in Polish Armies in September Campaign, as well as many Ukrainians with Polish citizenship - i can give you examples of units which were fighting very well against Germans and majority of soldiers in those units were Ukrianians.

In 2005 24,8% Grodno inhabitants were Poles

I think that we cannot say that 90% Grodno inhabitants were Poles in 1939, but we can say that 90% of Grodno inhabitants were devoted to Poland not to USRR or III Reich.

Regards

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ToKu
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Post by ToKu » 07 Aug 2007 19:15

According to Czesław Grezelak's book Wilno - Grodno - Kodziowce 1939 Warsaw Bellona 2002 p. 105 - 106 first clashes with communistic underground in Grodno's center errupted as early as 17th September. More intense, altough not realy hard fights occured on 18th of September in area of Batory's square. Grzelak's claim is based on two polish eyewitness testimonies.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 07 Aug 2007 20:29

Grzelak's claim is based on two polish eyewitness testimonies.
Long time ago someone said that eywitness testimony is the worst thing that can happen to a historian who wants to be credible... :wink: But maybe its not true hehe

But thanks for this source - ill try to read this book

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Rian
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Post by Rian » 08 Sep 2007 15:50

Ukrainian Front:
972 KIA, death from wounds and MIA
1360 WIA

Belarusian Front:
503 KIA, death from wounds and MIA
642 WIA

There is true number of soviet casualties in september 1939?? There is including casualties of Soviet Border Corps and Air Forces??

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fallweiss
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Post by fallweiss » 13 Sep 2007 14:53

Reserve Cavalry Brigade Wolkowyski on 22 September in battle near Kodziowice(101. Lancers Regiment) had destroyed 12 tanks. Soviet losses in men:800.(confirmed by Soviet sources)

20 September- battle near Skidle:Defend Cavalry Group Wolkowysk (6 squadrons) fought against Soviet armoured team-8 tanks destroyed.

Famous Wolynska Cavalry Brigade had their Reinforcement Group in Hrubieszów.This group had captured the city Kamionka with suprising cavalry charge(I heard that was another battle over this city).Soviet losses:unkown

Soviet Air Forces losses:officially about 7 planes but many Polish report said that some Polish fighters had after 17 September some air fights with many shotdowns(one of them shot 3).Also there was a special acident:some Soviet plane flew very close to the ground.Pilot want to destroy a anti-tank gun.Polish gunners from KOP group raise to the maximum the angle of gun and hit fatally Soviet plane

best wishes

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Rian
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Post by Rian » 18 Sep 2007 15:24

Reserve Cavalry Brigade Wolkowyski on 22 September in battle near Kodziowice(101. Lancers Regiment) had destroyed 12 tanks. Soviet losses in men:800.(confirmed by Soviet sources)
What soviet sources?? In my soviet sources is other number of casualties on Kodziowce battle: 4 tanks, 3 armored cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA

Art
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Post by Art » 18 Sep 2007 16:18

Rian wrote: There is true number of soviet casualties in september 1939?? There is including casualties of Soviet Border Corps and Air Forces??
Compare with Krivosheev's data:
KIA 973
DoW 102
Accidents and catastrophes: 76
MIA 302
Died of sickness 22
Total irrevocable: 1475
WIA 2002
Sick 381
Total losses 3858
The losses of borderguard troops are included. Air Forces were the part of the RKKA in organizational respect and their losses are included too.

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Rian
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Post by Rian » 24 Sep 2007 13:46

Compare with Krivosheev's data:
KIA 973
DoW 102
Accidents and catastrophes: 76
MIA 302
Died of sickness 22
Total irrevocable: 1475
WIA 2002
Sick 381
Total losses 3858
The losses of borderguard troops are included. Air Forces were the part of the RKKA in organizational respect and their losses are included too.
Hmmm... interesting relations between deads and woudneeds.
1475/2002 = 1 dead/missing per 1,35 wounded

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fallweiss
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Post by fallweiss » 26 Sep 2007 19:41

Rian wrote:
Reserve Cavalry Brigade Wolkowyski on 22 September in battle near Kodziowice(101. Lancers Regiment) had destroyed 12 tanks. Soviet losses in men:800.(confirmed by Soviet sources)
What soviet sources?? In my soviet sources is other number of casualties on Kodziowce battle: 4 tanks, 3 armored cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA
Information from "Polish Cavalry Book" H.Smaczny

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Rian
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Post by Rian » 05 Oct 2007 12:44

Rian wrote:
Quote:
Reserve Cavalry Brigade Wolkowyski on 22 September in battle near Kodziowice(101. Lancers Regiment) had destroyed 12 tanks. Soviet losses in men:800.(confirmed by Soviet sources)

What soviet sources?? In my soviet sources is other number of casualties on Kodziowce battle: 4 tanks, 3 armored cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA


Information from "Polish Cavalry Book" H.Smaczny
I too know informations about 800 Soviet casualties in battle of Kodziowce - but that was only polish opinions - not russian sources.
In my book - "Wilno-Grodno-Kodziowce 1939" (Czeslaw Grzelak, Bellona/2002) - soviet casualties (by soviet sources) are: 4 tanks, 3 armored cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA. Maybe soviet sources are false - but nobody know what sources can be true.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 24 Oct 2007 17:14

Rian wrote:
Rian wrote:
Quote:
Reserve Cavalry Brigade Wolkowyski on 22 September in battle near Kodziowice(101. Lancers Regiment) had destroyed 12 tanks. Soviet losses in men:800.(confirmed by Soviet sources)

What soviet sources?? In my soviet sources is other number of casualties on Kodziowce battle: 4 tanks, 3 armored cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA


Information from "Polish Cavalry Book" H.Smaczny
I too know informations about 800 Soviet casualties in battle of Kodziowce - but that was only polish opinions - not russian sources.
In my book - "Wilno-Grodno-Kodziowce 1939" (Czeslaw Grzelak, Bellona/2002) - soviet casualties (by soviet sources) are: 4 tanks, 3 armored cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA. Maybe soviet sources are false - but nobody know what sources can be true.
Explain to me why the Soviet sources " it is possible not the truth "? What for Soviet to say lies to itself? Losses in Polish campaign KA in militarians were low. What sense was them to diminish even more?

Figures about losses are resulted precisely.

In the same to fight three Red Army men have been taken in a captivity. Their surnames Satkovsky, Shitalko and Shatko. On the Soviet data, two have been killed by Poles. Satkovsky it could be rescueed. It and stories about execution of two others the soldier.

Regards

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 24 Oct 2007 17:19

Soviet Air Forces losses:officially about 7 planes but many Polish report said that some Polish fighters had after 17 September some air fights with many shotdowns(one of them shot 3).Also there was a special acident:some Soviet plane flew very close to the ground.Pilot want to destroy a anti-tank gun.Polish gunners from KOP group raise to the maximum the angle of gun and hit fatally Soviet plane

best wishes
[/quote]

Last history is similar to the Soviet myths about destruction of German planes from a rifle Mosin.
Losses of the Soviet Air Forces estimate in six planes more often.

Regards

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Oct 2007 19:53

In the same to fight three Red Army men have been taken in a captivity. Their surnames Satkovsky, Shitalko and Shatko. On the Soviet data, two have been killed by Poles. Satkovsky it could be rescueed. It and stories about execution of two others the soldier.

Regards
Sorry, but that is not correct information. There were at least few dozens of Soviet soldiers who were in Polish captivity - some of them were there shorter, some of them for a long time.

There were many soviet soldiers who came to Polish "captivity" voluntarily - and its well known, examples are from reports of SGO "Polesie" and KOP Group under command of Orlick-Ruckemann.

Also there were some coincidences, that Polish soldiers who were captured by Soviets, were released shortly after taking captivity. Personally, I know one such situation.

Also, many Poles escaped from Soviet captivity after few hours - especially im talking about privates, because they were often very badly supervised.

My grandfather served in 9. Pułk Piechoty Legionów and he was fighting in Grupa Operacyjna generała Kruszewskiego during the second battle of Tomaszów Lubelski. He, and some other guys from his unit, were captured by soldiers from Soviet 8th Rifle Corps (probably from 81st Rifle Division) on 25th September, near Hrubieszów (in region between Hrubieszów-Krasnystaw-Chełm-Zamość, Soviet units from 8th Rifle Corps, especcialy 44th and 81st Rifle Divisions, were engaged in a heavy battle with Polish forces, mainly from Kruszewski's Group, since 23rd September) - they managed to escape after few hours, while they were marching across a field with potatoes.

They escaped, and finally joined to gen. Kleeberg's SGO "Polesie" - he went to German captivity on 6th October, after SGO "Polesie" surrendered to Germans, when it was not able to continue fight, because of lack of ammo and fuel. Before that he was fighting against Soviets in the battles of Puchowa Góra and Mikołów (these 2 battles were Soviet defeats).

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