Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 29 May 2007 23:45

Zawisza,

I am really looking forward for more info about the Battle of Szack.

Regards

zawisza1976
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Post by zawisza1976 » 31 May 2007 21:21

hmmm, so i've got too translate all books ;)

Patience, lack of time. :(

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Ogorek
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Post by Ogorek » 01 Jun 2007 13:48

Hello Zawisza1976...

Thank you for your excellent contribution....

One small correction you might make in teh future....

you wrote : " 100 Shooter Division (Dywizja Strzelców) "

Dywizja Strzelcow would better be translated as " RIFLE DIVISION "

Again, Thank You,

Ogorek

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Post by zawisza1976 » 03 Jun 2007 08:06

ok, will be "Rifle Division"

Annotation for nr 2 - Battle at river Slucza

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Annotaion for concentration of forces KOP: 8700 soldiers

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Post by zawisza1976 » 06 Jun 2007 20:50

Some people like it my small work so i decide too resize a military history. Will see if they more like it. :)

Battle of Szack

City Szack occupied by Russian forces. Gen Orlik-Ruckemann decides fight for Szack to secure by force to river Bug (he dont now what forces have Russians at Szack).

27.09.1939 near too Szack area arrives Russian 52 Rifle Division (13000 soldiers).
28.09.1939 at 6.00 russian capt. Nisenyuk commander of 411 tank battalion encounter squadron cavalry KOP "Bystrzyce" at sacred spot Morawsko without recognition and insure. Battalion was shooted by armour-piercing guns. Tanks was destroyed. Only 3 soldiers of crew escapes. Capt. Nisenyuk perform command for yesterday - to help 205 regiment at lake Tur. So he even dont nows about 100-120 Polish cavalry soldiers hiding in forest.

City Szack was defend by 2 company of 112 regiment and 54 unit of armour-piercing artillery. This forces inform headquarters about destruction of 411 tank battalion and need help.
Lt./col. Nikodem Sulik decides attack Szack of 3 battalions: KOP "Berezne", KOP "Rokitno" and battalion mjr. Balcerzak. Baons dusts attack singly. Before battalion attacks becomes strange event. Rest of 411 tank battalion (company) move on road in column. Armour-piercing guns destroyed 8 tanks and some of trucks with soldiers. They surrender. Polish soldiers take advantage and attack. First was battalion of mjr. Balcerzak, then battalion KOP "Berezne" mjr. Zurowski. Destroyed tanks and trucks gives soldiers more vigour and attack Szack defended by: 2 company of 112 regiment, platoon of hevy machine guns and 54 unit armour-piercing artillery. Polish troops was victouries. About 12.00 28.09.1939 road too west was open.

Russians bombards Szack but they dont now about brigade "Polesie" quarter on they left wing. At 13.00 rifle troops attack but they fight off of machine guns company "Tyszyca" and artillery. At 19.00 colonel Russijanow - commander of 52 Rifle Division - decides bring closer some artillery units. Crew guns was killed becouse they was near Polish positions (100 meters). Col. Russijanow throws too attack new forces (single companies). Polish defends.

Gen. Orlik-Ruckemann decide attack Russian forces with flank attack with battalion of col Rozycki-Kolodziejczyk (troops of brigade "Polesie"). Russian forces - 2 batallions. Colonel didnt obey oder and attack only a company on line Russian 58 regiment. Attack didnt sucside. However Russian troops panic because they fink was encircle. In mean time forces of 205 regiment fights with troops of brigade "Polesie" and owns forces 52 Rifle Division. Parts of 58 and 112 regiments break up with forest and occupy positions in places where they want. This fights was in night houres.

On the night 29.09.1939 last forces (lt./col. Sulik) retreat of Szack at river Bug. Last forces of brigade "Polesie" retreat and also convey river Bug at 10.00 in same day.

Polish looses: 500 soldiers (kills, wounded, missing, captivity)
Russian looses: 8-9 tanks and 5 tracktors "Komsomolec".

!!! (looses of tanks and soldiers was decrease by Russian
commanders and afterwards Russian literature - figts proove it. Also
Polish side average of loose'it tanks by Russians so i minimalize
that)

If Polish commander of brigade "Polesie" (col. Rozycki - Kolodziejczyk) dont do mistakes (3 mistakes) even 52 Rifle Division might be completly destroyed.

Gen Wilhelm Orlik - Ruckemann
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Battle of Szack
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Next - battle of Wytyczno

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Petho
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Post by Petho » 07 Jun 2007 15:37

An interesting read, thank you zawisza1976!

Take care and good luck
Jason Petho

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Aug 2007 10:32

Some examples of polish-russian battles in September Campaign, that exact or estimate both side losses are known:

Battle of Borowicze-Nawóz-Huziatyń - 21 September:

Soviet forces - (part of 87 Infantry Division) - 16 Infantry Regiment, 71 AT artillery squadron, 43 divisional reconessaince battalion
Polish forces - 3 KOP Regiment, mjr. Jan Walaska's artillery squadron

Soviet losses (according to Russian sources - RGWA):

16 Infantry Regiment - 169 KIA and MIA, 131 WIA
43 divisional reconessaince bat. - 2 destroyed tanks, huge number of KIA, MIA and WIA
Motorized Company from 43 divisional bat. - 29 KIA (only 11 men from company survived!!!)

Polish losses:

Low - less than 100 (including WIA, MIA, KIA and POWs)

Result: Polish forces withdrawn across Janówka region, towards bridge on river Stochów

Battle of Janówka and Stochów - 22 - 23 September:

Polish forces - same as the day before
Soviet forces - all units from 87 Infantry Division + heavy artillery and airforce support + reinforcements

Soviet losses:

16 Infantry Regiment - 56 KIA, 84 WIA
87 Infantry Division - another 4 destroyed tanks

Polish losses:

Also high

Result: On 23 September Polish commander, facing huge enemy forces, capitulates, but on honorable conditions (polish soldiers and officers are not taken captivity, but they are allowed to go to their homes)

Unfortunately, Soviet busters treaten capitulation conditions, and captured all polish officers - later most of them were killed (most part in Медное - it's near town called in polish "Katyń"...)

Battle of Grodno - Grodno was the longest defended against Soviet agression big Polish city east of river Bug

Soviet losses in Grodno (according to Russian sources): 53 KIA, 161 WIA, 19 tanks, 3 armoured cars

Polish losses: 19 murdered officers (murdered after taken prisoners), many KIA, WIA, MIA - many of them were teenage boys, Grodno was defended also by polish civilians (in 1939 90% Grodno's inhabitant were Poles - today Grodno is in Belarus, but there still lives many Poles there)

Result: Soviet forces captured Grodno, but MOST PART OF 2,000 defenders, managed to ESCAPE, and later still fought against Soviets - for example in Battle of Kodziowce & Sopoćkinie.

Rest of them - escaped to Lithuania, and later to France - they wanted to fight in new-formed Polish Forces in France

In 1941 city Grodno was given Virtuti Militari - the highest polish military award, and was called "Zawsze Wierne" (Always Faithfull) by General Władysław Sikorski

Also soldiers who fought in Grodno - and later in 6th Polish Infantry Division in the West, were awarded by Sikorski in 1941with "Medal of New Eagles" (according to tradition of city Lwów defenders - "Lwowian Eagles" - men who defended, with great breavery, Polish city - Lwów - from Ukrainians in 1919 - and they won - Lwów was in Poland between 1918-1939)

Battle of Kodziowce & Sopoćkinie (near Augustów Forest - Suwalszczyzna region, north-east Poland) - 22. September :

Soviet losses (as always - according to soviet sources) - 4 destroyed tanks, 3 destroyed armoured cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA

Poles claimed 22 soviet armoured vehicles "eliminated" ("eliminated" - that probably means - Poles destroyed 7 and heavilly damaged 15, Russians though that all of these heavily damaged would be repaired - but probably often those vehicles were unable to repair, so real number of lost vehicles is probably higher than 7, but lower than 22)

Very interesting think is that Polish Soldiers from Reserve Cavalary Brigade "Wołkowysk" who fought at Kodziowce and Sopoćkinie, hadnt have ANY anti-tank weapons - all soviet tanks they destroyed, they destroyed using so called "Molotov Coctails" (in Poland - Butelki z Benzyną ) (they burned tanks - not crushed them) and other "home-made" weapons.

Soviet Army March across Lember (Lwów) streets, after city had capitulated to Russians - afternoon 22. September:

Soviet losses: 4 KIA, 8 WIA (it seems that not all polish soldiers and civilians stoped fighting after capitulation)

Operation near River Dniestr and Beskid:

Soviet 13 Infantry Corp losses: 16 KIA, 65 WIA (most casualties caused by polish mines)

Polish losses: very low

Result: Soviet forces captured... 300 tankers of great polish Vodka in town Borysław :D (German captured that Vodka before, but they didnt drink all - hehe - and they were ordered to withdraw to west bank of River Bug - as pact Ribbentrop-Molotow says their commanders - they probably forgot to take Vodka with them :shock: )

Battle of Szack - 28. September:

Soviet losses (according to soviet "sources" - probably false "sources") 81 - 82 KIA (including 6 - 7 officers), 184 - 185 WIA, 9 completely destroyed tanks, 5 completely destroyed Komsomolec's - they dont say how many where damaged, and this source probably lies about losses (too small for such a big battle - and won by Polish KOP forces)

Polish losess: probably few hundreds (but Russian - as called "sources" - estimates them for 700 KIA and more than 1000 MIA !!! SIC!!!!! - they try to say Poles had 700 KIA and we had 81 KIA - in the battle which was won by Poles! - HAHAHAHHAHA)

Battle of Wytyczno - 1. October 1939 :

Soviet losses of 253 Infantry Regiment (according to Soviet sources ofc): 31 KIA, 94 WIA, 3 destroyed tanks T-37, 3 destroyed Komsomolec's, 1 heavily damaged tank

Polish losses (according to Polish sources ofc): 93 KIA, Prisoners who died from wounds - they had no medical care in Soviet captivity-, and murdered after taking to captivity (most of that number - 93 - were murdered priosners - that's how Soviets respected soldiers uniform and Geneva Treaties ...)

Polish losses according to Soviets sources (no - not sources but Soviet propaganda - thats right name for that bullshit...) - 380 Killed in Action, 1000 Prisoners (no matter that in Battle of Wytyczno fought less than 1380 Polish soldiers... - numbers which are in soviet, so called, "sources" - are always SO round... 1000, 500, 380 etc. :roll: .... )

Battle of Milanów & Parczewo - Polish "Kobryń" ID from SGO "Polesie" Victory - 30. September:

Soviet losses (according to Polish sources - Division "Kobryń" reports): At least 100 KIA (including 3 officers and battalion commander)

Soviet losses (according to Soviet sources): 36 KIA, 41 WIA, 3 tanks destroyed, 3 trucks destroyed, 4 Heavy Machine Guns lost, 1 artillery piece lost

68 Soviet soldiers were taken prisoners and used as porters (Poles let them to go, but they didnt wont to come back to their own forces or go anywhere - they were scared)

Poles also captured:

11 Heavy Machine Guns
7 Light Machine Guns
1 Artillery gun
10 Ammunition Trucks

Polish losses: 8 KIA, 7 WIA

Soviet sources means:

RGWA
"Sowietsko-polskije wojny 1918 - 1939"

Polish sources means:

"Agresja na Polskę w świetle dokumentów. 17 września 1939", Warzawa 1994
"Gdy Zamilkły Strzały" J.Klaudia
"Kampania Polska 1939 Roku" Cz.Grzelak, H.Stańczyk - pages 233 - 278, 317 - 367 - and numbers given in that book about Soviet casualties also based mainly on Russian sources, but authors of that publication - Czesław Grzelak and Henryk Stańczyk - always gives their comment to numbers that russian source gives (in some situations they agree with them, but most times they say russian sources are probably falsed by comunist propaganda - and number of casualties are lowered - sometimes i agree with them - for example with numbers given to Battle of Wytyczno and Szack - two greatest Russian defeats in Polish Campaign :roll:)

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Aug 2007 10:41

Soviet forces also lost many tanks in Poland, most probably they lost about 75 - 100 destroyed tanks (according to Soviet sources, they lost 42 tanks "definietly" - comparising with 236 that German "definietly" lost - so i think they had 75 - 100 destroyed tanks - as German had 419 destroyed)

And total number of broken / damaged / destroyed tanks was at least 471 - but most of them were broken or lightly damaged.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 05 Aug 2007 13:16

Domen121 wrote:
Some examples of polish-russian battles in September Campaign, that exact or estimate both side losses are known:

Battle of Borowicze-Nawóz-Huziaty - 21 September:

Soviet forces - (part of 87 Infantry Division) - 16 Infantry Regiment, 71 AT artillery squadron, 43 divisional reconessaince battalion
Polish forces - 3 KOP Regiment, mjr. Jan Walaska's artillery squadron

Soviet losses (according to Russian sources - RGWA):

16 Infantry Regiment - 169 KIA and MIA, 131 WIA
43 divisional reconessaince bat. - 2 destroyed tanks, huge number of KIA, MIA and WIA
Motorized Company from 43 divisional bat. - 29 KIA (only 11 men from company survived!!!)

Polish losses:

Low - less than 100 (including WIA, MIA, KIA and POWs)

Result: Polish forces withdrawn across Janówka region, towards bridge on river Stochów
Soviet losses - 99 KIA, 137 WIA, 1 ATG, 3 HMG.

Polish losses - 260 KIA/WIA and 120 POW

In Motorized Company it is more, than 40 men.



Battle of Grodno - Grodno was the longest defended against Soviet agression big Polish city east of river Bug

Soviet losses in Grodno (according to Russian sources): 53 KIA, 161 WIA, 19 tanks, 3 armoured cars

Polish losses: 19 murdered officers (murdered after taken prisoners), many KIA, WIA, MIA - many of them were teenage boys, Grodno was defended also by polish civilians (in 1939 90 % Grodno's inhabitant were Poles - today Grodno is in Belarus, but there still lives many Poles there)

Result: Soviet forces captured Grodno, but MOST PART OF 2,000 defenders, managed to ESCAPE, and later still fought against Soviets - for example in Battle of Kodziowce and Sopoćkinie.

Rest of them - escaped to Lithuania, and later to France - they wanted to fight in new-formed Polish Forces in France

In 1941 city Grodno was given Virtuti Militari - the highest polish military award, and was called " Zawsze Wierne " (Always Faithfull) by General Władysław Sikorski

Also soldiers who fought in Grodno - and later in 6th Polish Infantry Division in the West, were awarded by Sikorski in 1941with " Medal of New Eagles " (according to tradition of city Lwów defenders - " Lwowian Eagles " - men who defended, with great breavery, Polish city - Lwów - from Ukrainians in 1919 - and they won - Lwów was in Poland between 1918-1939)
Soviet losses in Grodno - 57 KIA, 159 WIA, 19 destroyed/damaged tanks, 4 AC.

Polish losses - in city 644 corpses, 1543 POW. Captured - 514 rifles, 50 revolvers, 146 MG, 1 AAG, 1 mortar were revealed.

Source - RGVA F.35086 Op.1. D.1
Battle of Kodziowce and Sopoćkinie (near Augustów Forest - Suwalszczyzna region, north-east Poland) - 22. September:

Soviet losses (as always - according to soviet sources) - 4 destroyed tanks, 3 destroyed armoured cars, 11 KIA, 14 WIA
4 tanks are not destroyed, and "damaged." Not armoured cars. 5 LORRIES.
Poles claimed 22 soviet armoured vehicles "eliminated" ("eliminated" - that probably means - Poles destroyed 7 and heavilly damaged 15, Russians though that all of these heavily damaged would be repaired - but probably often those vehicles were unable to repair, so real number of lost vehicles is probably higher than 7, but lower than 22)
Poles as well as Russian, have succeeded in « destruction of the opponent ».
Very interesting think is that Polish Soldiers from Reserve Cavalary Brigade "Wołkowysk" who fought at Kodziowce and Sopoćkinie, hadnt have ANY anti-tank weapons - all soviet tanks they destroyed, they destroyed using so called " Molotov Coctails " (in Poland - Butelki z Benzyn) (they burned tanks - not crushed them) and other "home-made" weapons.
Record in a diary 2 tbr. « the Opponent widely applied bottles with an incendiary mix …. »

Operation near River Dniestr and Beskid:

Soviet 13 Infantry Corp losses: 16 KIA, 65 WIA (most casualties caused by polish mines)

Polish losses: very low

Result: Soviet forces captured... 300 tankers of great polish Vodka in town Borysław (German captured that Vodka before, but they didnt drink all - hehe - and they were ordered to withdraw to west bank of River Bug - as pact Ribbentrop-Molotow says their commanders - they probably forgot to take Vodka with them )

Battle of Szack - 28. September:

Soviet losses (according to soviet "sources" - probably false "sources") 81 - 82 KIA (including 6 - 7 officers), 184 - 185 WIA, 9 completely destroyed tanks, 5 completely destroyed Komsomolec's - they dont say how many where damaged, and this source probably lies about losses (too small for such a big battle - and won by Polish KOP forces)

Polish losess: probably few hundreds (but Russian - as called "sources" - estimates them for 700 KIA and more than 1000 MIA!!! SIC!!!!! - they try to say Poles had 700 KIA and we had 81 KIA - in the battle which was won by Poles! - HAHAHAHHAHA)
Soviet losses - 81 KIA, 184 WIA, 5 T-26, 2N-38, 2 tractors, 3 ATG.

Polish losess - in the fighting report it is specified, that is revealed 524 corpses. Captured 500 rifles, 34 MG, 60 thousand cartridges, 4 cars of shells, 23 boxes of an explosive. « It is captured and directed on check (for an establishment of the person) 1100 men ».
Battle of Wytyczno - 1. October 1939:

Soviet losses of 253 Infantry Regiment (according to Soviet sources ofc): 31 KIA, 94 WIA, 3 destroyed tanks T-37, 3 destroyed Komsomolec's, 1 heavily damaged tank

Polish losses (according to Polish sources ofc): 93 KIA, Prisoners who died from wounds - they had no medical care in Soviet captivity-, and murdered after taking to captivity (most of that number - 93 - were murdered priosners - that's how Soviets respected soldiers uniform and Geneva Treaties...)

Polish losses according to Soviets sources (no - not sources but Soviet propaganda - thats right name for that bullshit...) - 380 Killed in Action, 1000 Prisoners (no matter that in Battle of Wytyczno fought less than 1380 Polish soldiers... - numbers which are in soviet, so called, "sources" - are always SO round... 1000, 500, 380 etc. ....)
Soviet losses - 31 KIA, 101 WIA.

Captured - 400 rifles, 8 MG, 4 pies.
Battle of Milanów and Parczewo - Polish "Kobry" ID from SGO "Polesie" Victory - 30. September:

Soviet losses (according to Polish sources - Division "Kobry" reports): At least 100 KIA (including 3 officers and battalion commander)

Soviet losses (according to Soviet sources): 36 KIA, 41 WIA, 3 tanks destroyed, 3 trucks destroyed, 4 Heavy Machine Guns lost, 1 artillery piece lost

68 Soviet soldiers were taken prisoners and used as porters (Poles let them to go, but they didnt wont to come back to their own forces or go anywhere - they were scared)

Poles also captured:

11 Heavy Machine Guns
7 Light Machine Guns
1 Artillery gun
10 Ammunition Trucks

Polish losses: 8 KIA, 7 WIA
Polish losses - in the fighting report: on a battlefield 20 corpses, POW 189 are found.

Soviet losses - 36 KIA, 41 WIA, 9 POW, 3 tanks, 3 cars, 4 machine guns, 1 artillery piece.


In number POW the Soviet statistics considers: military men, police, gendarmes, any persons with the weapon.

Was captured 51 military ship (small).

Source:
Советско-Польские войны. М.2004.
« Блицкриг в Европе Европе.1939-1941. Польша», Москва, 2004.
Materials of funds 35084 and 35086 RGVA.
Grzelak, H.Stańczyk - pages 233 - 278, 317 - 367 - and numbers given in that book about Soviet casualties also based mainly on Russian sources, but authors of that publication - Czesław Grzelak and Henryk Stańczyk - always gives their comment to numbers that russian source gives (in some situations they agree with them, but most times they say russian sources are probably falsed by comunist propaganda - and number of casualties are lowered - sometimes i agree with them - for example with numbers given to Battle of Wytyczno and Szack - two greatest Russian defeats in Polish Campaign )
Some Polish authors strange read Russian sources, deforming figures. Fighting reports cannot be propaganda. They are intended only for army use.

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Aug 2007 15:08

Hi Alex!
In Motorized Company it is more, than 40 men.
Of course - its more than 40 men according to OOB of average russian motorized company - but in that motorized company, when the battle begun, were 40 men
Polish losses - in city 644 corpses, 1543 POW. Captured - 514 rifles, 50 revolvers, 146 MG, 1 AAG, 1 mortar were revealed.

Source - RGVA F.35086 Op.1. D.1
Grodno had 2,000 defenders - and most part of them managed to escape from the city - this figures are even higher than number of city defenders!!! There is no doubt that Russian sources are increasing Polish casualties - best example is Battle of Wytyczno in which exactly 93 Poles lost their lives, and Soviet sources gives the number of 380 dead Poles!
in the fighting report it is specified, that is revealed 524 corpses.
Maybe - but including murderred civilians...
Fighting reports cannot be propaganda. They are intended only for army use.
They shouldnt be propaganda according to own losses - they shouldnt decrease them, but they can increase enemy losses, because every commander wants to increase importance of his victories, and decrease tragedy of his defeats.

If he decrease his own casualties - its easy to detect, because he is not able to summon his dead soldiers from hell !

But if he increase enemy losses - its harder to detect his cheat

Poles also had they own combat reports - and number given there were also not always true (according to enemy).

So if You want to know real losses of both sides - You should use Polish sources to learn about Polish losses, and Russian sources to learn about Russian casualties! - that's if you want to be objective.
Some Polish authors strange read Russian sources, deforming figures. Fighting reports cannot be propaganda. They are intended only for army use.
But they read Russian sources! - and im not shure if any Russian author have ever read any Polish source... (if they dont even know how many Poles fought in concrete battle)

Well, maybe all polish sources are propaganda to them?!...

Regards!

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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Aug 2007 15:42

Btw - can u explain me something about POWs?

My grandfather was fighting near city Zamość in General Kruszewski's Group in the Second Battle of Tomaszów Mazowiecki - he and his friend were captured by Soviets - but after few hours they managed to escape and joined their Regiment (9th Legionary Infantry Regiment) - and were still fighting. After his division capitulation, he went to the north-west with some guys from his regiment and Ander's Cavalary Group (which was also in Kruszewski's Group) - and they joined to KOP Group which later joined to Group "Polesie" - so he was fighting in Battle of Wytyczno and Battle of Kock.

Now some questions:

How is my grandfather register on Polish casualties list in Russian combat reports?

Was he registered as a POW in that reports? Is he still there as a POW? Hmm?

There were much more such troops as my grandfather - he said it was very easy to escape for him.

Is that possible that man who officialy is in Russian captivity is fighting against Germans?!

Regards!

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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Aug 2007 16:11

Battle of Szack:
Polish losess - in the fighting report it is specified, that is revealed 524 corpses. Captured 500 rifles, 34 MG, 60 thousand cartridges, 4 cars of shells, 23 boxes of an explosive. « It is captured and directed on check (for an establishment of the person) 1100 men ».
First of all - when the Battle begun, KOP Group had not even 4,000 men

Second thing - according to Soviet sources they revealed 524 corpses, captured 1100 men - and they captured only 500 rifles?! Ridiculous!

It seems that they captured 500 rifles and killed / captured 500 KOP troops - and that can be the truth.

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 05 Aug 2007 16:11

Domen121 wrote:Hi Alex!
Hi!
In Motorized Company it is more, than 40 men.
Of course - its more than 40 men according to OOB of average russian motorized company - but in that motorized company, when the battle begun, were 40 men
Only if it sustained losses before.
Polish losses - in city 644 corpses, 1543 POW. Captured - 514 rifles, 50 revolvers, 146 MG, 1 AAG, 1 mortar were revealed.

Source - RGVA F.35086 Op.1. D.1
Grodno had 2,000 defenders - and most part of them managed to escape from the city - this figures are even higher than number of city defenders!!! There is no doubt that Russian sources are increasing Polish casualties - best example is Battle of Wytyczno in which exactly 93 Poles lost their lives, and Soviet sources gives the number of 380 dead Poles!
in the fighting report it is specified, that is revealed 524 corpses.
Maybe - but including murderred civilians...
Fighting reports cannot be propaganda. They are intended only for army use.

In Grodno on September, 18th there were disorders and firing. Peace citizens certainly were lost. In the Soviet source " 644 persons " are buried.
In the Soviet source: " Grodno were defended with insignificant number of the Polish armies, but there was a lot of gendarmerie and polices, and also militias.... ". In number captured policemen, gendarmerie and militia (opolczenie) have got certainly.

They shouldnt be propaganda according to own losses - they shouldnt decrease them, but they can increase enemy losses, because every commander wants to increase importance of his victories, and decrease tragedy of his defeats.

If he decrease his own casualties - its easy to detect, because he is not able to summon his dead soldiers from hell !

But if he increase enemy losses - its harder to detect his cheat

Poles also had they own combat reports - and number given there were also not always true (according to enemy).
For a deceit soviet unit the commander could lose not only the post, but also a life.

Regards.

Alex.

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 05 Aug 2007 16:19

But they read Russian sources! - and im not shure if any Russian author have ever read any Polish source... (if they dont even know how many Poles fought in concrete battle)
Russian authors use also many Polish sources. There were also joint editions. For example, Magnuski/Kolomiecz. Also are used: Cygan, Swbanski, Grzelak book and other.

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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Aug 2007 16:29

In Grodno on September, 18th there were disorders and firing.
On 18. and 19. September anything happened in Grodno. On 20. September there were fights but NOT in Grodno, - Skidel - village few km from Grodno

Grodno was defended by 2,000 MEN - not 2,000 soldiers! - this number includes everyone who defended Grodno, even armed civilians.

Peace civilians certainly were lost in Grodno, but not on 18. September

In Skidel there was incident that Polish soldiers killed some "civilians" but they were not peace - they were saboteurs who attacked polish unit - probably Russian sources include that killed saboteurs into 644 "Polish" bodies buried after Battle of Grodno (no matter that was in Skidel not in Grodno and they were not killed by Russians...)
For a deceit soviet unit the commander could lose not only the post, but also a life.
Nothing special - Polish commander could lose his life too - as well as German - and nevertheless they were cheating with enemy losses... or they didnt know exact enemy losses - its hard to count all enemy bodies and destroy vehicles... - especcialy when u are ordered to move into enemy country as fast as possible - so u fight and after battle u dont have time for counting... u must keep advancing and chase ur enemy...

Regards!
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 05 Aug 2007 16:55, edited 6 times in total.

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