Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

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mars
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Post by mars » 28 Jun 2004 02:06

No, Mark, thoese were what von Manteuffel gave the US army officers about the combat strength of GD on May 1, 1944, of course myself was not the one the judge these statistic, it was possible that von Manteuffel simply did not know what he was talking about.

Michate
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Post by Michate » 28 Jun 2004 09:08

No, Mark, thoese were what von Manteuffel gave the US army officers about the combat strength of GD on May 1, 1944, of course myself was not the one the judge these statistic, it was possible that von Manteuffel simply did not know what he was talking about.
Hm, there should be data on strength of on-hand and operational tanks of German units in the BA-MA and NARA archives, e.g. within records of Gen.Insp. der Panzertruppen.

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Leo Niehorster
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Post by Leo Niehorster » 28 Jun 2004 09:12

Vopersal, in his excellent SS-T Div history, Vol. IVb, as of page 498, has some 40 pages describing the fighting at Targul Frumos (Tg. Frumos), with two maps and several good terrain photographs.

F.M. v. Senger u. Etterlin in his 24. PzDiv history also has a 10 page (incl. 1 map) discription of the fighting starting at page 230. (Also adds a few details to the 2 Kampfgruppe posted by Marcus.)

Cheers
Leo

Roger Griffiths
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Post by Roger Griffiths » 28 Jun 2004 09:18

The records of the Genearalinpekteur der Panzertruppen are missing Monthly Returns (Zustandsberichte) for PGD GD for 1 April and 1 May, and 1 May for 3SSPD.

However, there could be 20 or more copies going to higher Staffs, so they might exist.

PGD GD - PR GD at this time had I(V)/26 under command, II(IV)/ 5, 6, and 7 Coys. and III(VI)/ 9, 10 and 11 Coys. There was also the Stug. Abt. All were equipped, numbers unknown to me. I(V)/PR26 being an attached unit made it's own Return and on 1 May had 28 Panther, 19 runners and 8 in short term repair.

3SSPD - Division was very weak. Nearest Return is 15 April. Personnel was 11,547 against establishment of 19,367. SSPGR5 'T' was inoperative no men, no equipment being shown. SSPGR6 'TE' was at 68% of personnel establishment. Regimental Staff and II(IV)/ of SSPR3 was at 61% of personnel establishment and had no panzers, no Tiger I shown. SSStug.Abt.3 had 2 Stug III in short term repair.

Roger

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Leo Niehorster
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Post by Leo Niehorster » 28 Jun 2004 10:58

Vopersal, SS-T Div, pp 484-6, depicts a Monatsmeldung (monthly report), but not the Zustandsbericht, unfortunately) dated 27.04.44. It does not indicate the actual number of tanks or personnel on hand or missing, but it does outline the reduced state of the division in some detail.

There is furthermore on pp 507-508 a report by the Quartiermeister of Agr. Wöhler about the supply and service unit situation of the division. Amongst other details, he states that only 17% of the divisions motor vehicles are usable, and that the supply services had only 50% of its authorized transport.

On page 528, in a telex to the XXXXVII. PzK, Agr. Wöhler reports destroying 321 Soviet tanks plus another 75 more tanks at least temporarily damaged.

Cheers
Leo

[Edited to change the consigner]
Last edited by Leo Niehorster on 28 Jun 2004 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

Roger Griffiths
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Post by Roger Griffiths » 28 Jun 2004 11:49

A good book on the Totenkopf is Soldiers of Destruction by Charles W. Sydnor, Princeton UP 1977. On P. 302 he says that 6,000 replacements were sent in May and early June, including 4,500 from the forming 16 SS PGD. Being a serious history book, full source references are given.

Another one, which covers whole Waffen SS, is Hitler's Elite Guard at War by George H. Stein, Cornell UP through London UP, 1966.

1 June 44 Monthly Report for 3SSPD showed 8/1 Stug III (Runners/Short term repair), 23/4 Panzer IV, 2/5 Tiger I. Totenkopf did not show panzers on Kriegsgliederung which was an earlier security issue which is a pain to thee and me. MT situation was still inadequate. 137/23 Maultiere, 139/41 cross country trucks and 579/380 commercial trucks. There were only 23/8 SPW's/Armd. Cars/ etc. Personnel total was only 661 short of establishment though overstrength in men 2,251 reflected severe shortages of NCO's and Officers.

Roger

Mark V.
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Post by Mark V. » 28 Jun 2004 13:38

Thanks, for further info.

For 31 May 1944 Jentz lists for GD:
Pz.IV: 14 (8 runners);
Pz.V: 55 (30 runners and 35 in transport);
Pz.VI: 20 (12 runners and 20 in transport);

As for I./26 he shows that by 20 April there were only 13 Panthers :( (out of the original 75+11) available to the unit . Similarly Jung (Panzerregiment GD) also mentions 22 Pz.IV, 6-7 Pz.VI and 8-10 Panthers but unfortunately he (like Jentz) doesn't quote the source for his numbers.This is really a mess :? .

Ullrich also doesn't help much with the Totenkopf numbers :( .

cheers

the XXXXVII. PzK reports destroying 321 Soviet tanks plus another 75 more tanks at least temporarily damaged.
Leo shouldn't this be LVII.PzK?

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Post by Roger Griffiths » 28 Jun 2004 14:22

Hi Mark,

Don't despair, different dates are different dates.

PGD GD 1June44 showed 15/2 Stug III, 12/1 Panzer IV, 3/- Panther and 19/1 Tiger I.

PRGD
Regt. Staff Coy. 3 Panther (These are nothing to do with I(V)/PR26)

II(IV) - Staff Coy. 2 Bef, 5 Coy. 7, 6 Coy. 6, 7 Coy. 1

III(VI) - Staff Coy. 1 Bef. VI, 9 Coy. 7, 10 Coy. 6, 11 Coy. 8

Stug. Abt. GD
1 Bttry. 9, 3 Bttry. 8 (Annotation 2 SturmHaubitze which probably means including 2 StHaubIII)

Roger

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Leo Niehorster
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Post by Leo Niehorster » 28 Jun 2004 16:22

:oops:
Sorry, it was actually it was A.Gr. Wöhler which sent the telex. The picture in the book is merely a copy to XXXXVII. PzK.

[correction made to above post]

Cheers
Leo
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Mark V.
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Post by Mark V. » 28 Jun 2004 18:55

Roger Griffiths wrote:Hi Mark,
Don't despair, different dates are different dates.
Thanks Roger :) , but what is troubling me are rather the discrepencies in the number of Panthers in early May.
PGD GD 1June44 showed 15/2 Stug III, 12/1 Panzer IV, 3/- Panther and 19/1 Tiger I.
...well, at least here the numbers are the same (as in Jung).

cheers
Mark

Roger Griffiths
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Post by Roger Griffiths » 28 Jun 2004 20:28

Mark, there is'nt much of a discrepancy as such.

I(V)/26 - 28, Regt. Staff PRGD 3 = 31

Figures you provided 30 plus 35 in transport, latter meaning on the way, not yet received. So there's only a possible discrepancy of 1.

Roger

Mark V.
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Post by Mark V. » 28 Jun 2004 22:27

Roger, sorry if I wasn't specific enough I was referring to the number of available Panthers on the eve of Targul Frumos battle.

mars
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Post by mars » 29 Jun 2004 02:38

Mark, here is what General von Manteuffel told US army officers in his lecture about the combat strenght of GD on May 1 1944, at the eve of the battle of Targul-Frumos at US army command and general staff college:
1. The divisional staff with a mixture of hard and soft skinned vehicles;
2. The Panzer Regiment comprising:
One Battalion of MK IV tanks with 4 companies, totaling 40 tanks
Two battalions of MK V tanks, each battalion with 4 companies and 40 tanks,for a total 80 tanks
One battalion of MK VI tanks with 4 companies and 40 tanks
for a total of 160 tanks
3. Two infantry regiments(Grenadier and Fusilier], each with 3 battalions with 4 companiesand heavy weapons comanies
The Panzer Grenadier Regiment with 1 battalion in halftracks and 1 in lorries
The Panzer Fusilier Regiment with 1 battalion in halftracks and 2 in scout cars
4 A Reconnaissance Battalion at two-thirds strength
5 An Antiaircraft Battalion with 3 batteries of 88 mm guns and 1 battery of 37 mm guns
6 An Armored Artillery Regiment with 4 battlions, each battalion of 3 batteries, 1 tracked and 3 lorry drawn
7. An Assault Gun Battalion of about 40 guns
8. An Engineer Battalion
9. Summary:160 tanks, 24 infantry companies, 12 artillery batteries, 40 assult guns and 4 antiaircraft batteries.

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Kamen Nevenkin
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Post by Kamen Nevenkin » 29 Jun 2004 09:46

deleated
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mars
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Post by mars » 29 Jun 2004 14:35

Kamen: as I said, I just told you what General von Manteuffel said in his lecture, I do not know how far it was from the truth, so do not blame me.

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