Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

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Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Linkagain » 31 Oct 2021 03:05

Between December 16 and December 28, 1944 during the Ardennes offensive there was picture taken of America American POws possibly Quatermaster or Service troops...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... angene.jpg

Any idea what unit they belongs to? They appear to be wearing overcoats...

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Richard Anderson » 31 Oct 2021 04:40

Linkagain wrote:
31 Oct 2021 03:05
Between December 16 and December 28, 1944 during the Ardennes offensive there was picture taken of America American POws possibly Quatermaster or Service troops...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... angene.jpg

Any idea what unit they belongs to? They appear to be wearing overcoats...
333rd FA Battalion.
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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 31 Oct 2021 05:22

Any info on their treatment in captivity? There's the surprising finding that (Western) Jewish PoW's had the same survival rate as non-Jewish; I wonder whether that held for black soldiers.
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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Leprechaun » 31 Oct 2021 06:29

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
31 Oct 2021 05:22
Any info on their treatment in captivity? There's the surprising finding that (Western) Jewish PoW's had the same survival rate as non-Jewish; I wonder whether that held for black soldiers.
Another, smaller massacre was committed in Wereth, Belgium, approximately 6.5 miles (10.5 km) northeast of Saint-Vith on 17 December 1944. Eleven black American soldiers were tortured after surrendering and then shot by men of the 1st SS Panzer Division belonging to Schnellgruppe Knittel. Some of the injuries sustained before death included bayonet wounds to the head, broken legs, and their fingers cut off. The perpetrators were never punished for this crime. In 2001, a group of people began working on a tribute to the eleven black American soldiers to remember their sacrifices
From Battle of the Bulge Wikipedia
Was also on the TV about the Belgium farmer who tried to help them although can't remember the programs name I think he was reported and shot ?
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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 31 Oct 2021 09:51

Leprechaun wrote:
31 Oct 2021 06:29
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
31 Oct 2021 05:22
Any info on their treatment in captivity? There's the surprising finding that (Western) Jewish PoW's had the same survival rate as non-Jewish; I wonder whether that held for black soldiers.
Another, smaller massacre was committed in Wereth, Belgium, approximately 6.5 miles (10.5 km) northeast of Saint-Vith on 17 December 1944. Eleven black American soldiers were tortured after surrendering and then shot by men of the 1st SS Panzer Division belonging to Schnellgruppe Knittel. Some of the injuries sustained before death included bayonet wounds to the head, broken legs, and their fingers cut off. The perpetrators were never punished for this crime. In 2001, a group of people began working on a tribute to the eleven black American soldiers to remember their sacrifices
From Battle of the Bulge Wikipedia
Jesus.

My ignorance on this subject had me feeling guilty so I did a little research. It looks like there was a distinction between treatment by frontline captors and the German rearward authorities responsible for PoW's. The former was luck of the draw - the unlucky being massacred. If black PoW's survived the front authorities, however, it seems the result was treatment broadly in line with Geneva, as with Jewish PoW's [both cases only regard Western PoW's, obviously East is a different story]. From French Colonial Soldiers in German Captivity during World War II by Scheck:
The experience of French colonial prisoners tends to confirm
Rüdiger Overmans’ argument that the German authorities concerned with
POWs represented an older national-conservative mindset distinct from
National Socialism and that they were generally willing, concerning Western
prisoners, to observe international law.1
After the atrocities experienced or witnessed by many black soldiers in the
campaign of 1940, it is surprising that the German treatment of colonial soldiers,
including blacks, largely was decent. Although massive abuses occurred in
transit from the frontlines to the camps in the rear and in the provisional camps
in France, the situation improved after a few weeks. Guards and camp commanders
adopted a more cooperative and friendly attitude that made a big
difference to the prisoners. Propaganda gave the initial impulse for the improved
treatment.
This doesn't directly address black American/British PoW's but I'd guess a similar story.
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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Linkagain » 31 Oct 2021 13:29

Thanks for identification of the unit in Picture...did any veterans recognized themselves in the picture I wonder?

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Cult Icon » 31 Oct 2021 13:58

I am almost certain that those POWs made it to one of the German Worshenshau featuring the Ardennes offensive. They taped the black POWs and then the next shot shows SS troops laughing at them.

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by rcocean » 31 Oct 2021 16:40

The number of AA POW's was miniscule. The number of AA KIA's was tiny. Except for a few AA infantry platoons which came into existance due to the Late 44 and 1945 manpower crunch, the only AA infantry used in Europe, served in Italy with the 92nd Division. Even that was a bit of a disaster, with Marshall intervening and disbanding 2 of the 3 infantry regiments and replacing them with 442 Neisi and a newly formed white regiment drawn from disbanded AAA units. IRC, the only AA combat units in the ETO were a few TD/Armor battalions and Artillery units.

One reason the Army integrated in 1948, was the poor performance of black combat troops in segregated units. The US Army History (Green Books) of the "Negro in WW 2" is quite informative.

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 01 Nov 2021 06:12

rcocean wrote:
31 Oct 2021 16:40
One reason the Army integrated in 1948, was the poor performance of black combat troops in segregated units.
Setting aside whether this is true, discussing it without proper context should be avoided. Black troops grew up in a country that denied them and their forebears a decent start, that denied them equal access to resources to ameliorate their oppressed starting position, and that was viciously oppressing them during WW2 - including within their own army. Otherwise, it's like discussing Bob's sub-standard marathon time without mentioning that you shot him in the leg before the race.
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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Linkagain » 01 Nov 2021 14:04

I do remember of a battle of bulge History with this picture in which it was used as anti- negro "inferority" propaganda by the germans -as for the SS laughing at them...{Film clip{?}

Despite President Truman Desegregation order...this attitude didnt entirely die out....It took the US Army loses in the Korean War to finally implanent Integreation of the Miltiary

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by rcocean » 02 Nov 2021 23:38

Setting aside whether this is true, discussing it without proper context should be avoided. Black troops grew up in a country that denied them and their forebears a decent start, that denied them equal access to resources to ameliorate their oppressed starting position, and that was viciously oppressing them during WW2 - including within their own army. Otherwise, it's like discussing Bob's sub-standard marathon time without mentioning that you shot him in the leg before the race.
The segregated units were the problem, since there was no problem with black soldiers in integrated army units in the Korean war. The mix of White officers and black troops didn't seem to work in WW II combat. It should be noted the black American units fighting with the French in WW 1 had Black Platoon officers and did quite well.

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Cult Icon » 02 Nov 2021 23:42

Linkagain wrote:
01 Nov 2021 14:04
I do remember of a battle of bulge History with this picture in which it was used as anti- negro "inferority" propaganda by the germans -as for the SS laughing at them...{Film clip{?}
I tried to find the newsreel but it was deleted on youtube.

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Linkagain » 03 Nov 2021 14:24

The History was the Magazine "History of the Second World War" pp.2239-2240 Issue. 80 Sneers at them as "Bearers of American Culture"...it shows a alightly different photograph of the POWS in Question
Last edited by Linkagain on 03 Nov 2021 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by Dog Red » 03 Nov 2021 15:50

Linkagain wrote:
31 Oct 2021 03:05
Between December 16 and December 28, 1944 during the Ardennes offensive there was picture taken of America American POws possibly Quatermaster or Service troops...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... angene.jpg

Any idea what unit they belongs to? They appear to be wearing overcoats...
Hello,

See from 21.45 on this film :
https://youtu.be/izgpYN_pz0I

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Re: Aaafrican American PowS December 1944

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 04 Nov 2021 02:12

The SS is its own moral category but snearing at/laughing at/humiliating black soldiers? Nobody did that better and more often than Americans.
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