D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10068
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jul 2021 07:21

Hi Guys,

We are are still waiting for some hard evidence that Hitler was not asleep at the time the Allies landed at dawn on 6 June 1944 or for hours afterwards.

Have we any evidence at all that Hitler broke his late-sleeping pattern on this particular day?

We seem to have quite a lot of evidence above that he did not.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14483
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 15 Jul 2021 08:39

We are still waiting for hard evidence that Hitler was asleep at dawn or for hours afterwards.
The article of Die Welt said that Hitler went to bed at 2.10 AM and that he received initial unreliable information at 11 AM .
This does not mean that he slept between 2.10 and 11 .It means hat he was awake already on 11 AM .And that it was probable that he was awake before 11 AM .
There is a lot of evidence that he was waking up earlier than usual,because he had to go to Klessheim.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10068
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jul 2021 10:51

Hi ljadw,

As so often, your reasoning is at fault. We know from numerous sources Hitler's normal sleeping pattern - late to bed, late to rise. That is the default position.

What we need is evidence that overturns the default position for that particular day.

Where is it?

Your own last post quotes 11am as the earliest identifiable time Hitler was awake.

If you have earlier, where is it?

I am happy to accept anything so long as the evidence supports it.

At the moment we have absolutely nothing to challenge the proposition that the D-Day landings started while Hitler was sleeping. Nor does it reflect on him badly if this is so. He had to get his eight hours in sometime!

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 15 Jul 2021 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10068
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jul 2021 10:53

Double post.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14483
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 15 Jul 2021 17:06

Sid Guttridge wrote:
15 Jul 2021 10:51
Hi ljadw,

As so often, your reasoning is at fault. We know from numerous sources Hitler's normal sleeping pattern - late to bed, late to rise. That is the default position.

What we need is evidence that overturns the default position for that particular day.

Where is it?

Your own last post quotes 11am as the earliest identifiable time Hitler was awake.

If you have earlier, where is it?

I am happy to accept anything so long as the evidence supports it.

At the moment we have absolutely nothing to challenge the proposition that the D-Day landings started while Hitler was sleeping. Nor does it reflect on him badly if this is so. He had to get his eight hours in sometime!

Cheers,

Sid.
No one denied that Hitler was sleeping when Overlord started,but the point of discussion is WHEN he was awake .And I do not believe that he was awake only at 11 PM,I am convinced that he was awake earlier,because he had to go to Klessheim ( a voyage of at least one hour ) and to be in Salzburg BEFORE the arrival of the Hungarians ,and these were expected to arrive in the early afternoon .Which means : before 1400 H .That's why I think that he left the Berghof not at 1200 but earlier ,which means that he exceptionally was awake at 8 PM and left the Berghof between 10 and 11 PM and arrived at Klessheim at last at noon .
Die Welt said that he arrived at Klessheim at 13 00 H , I am convinced that it was earlier .
We don't know how he went to Klessheim : by car or by train .Given the allied air superiority ( an allied pilot was shot down in the area in June,and lynched ) , I believe that it was by train .And a voyage by train would last at least an hour .
Hitler's normal sleeping pattern is not an argument that can be used . On 16 June he left the Berghof for Metz, which means that that day also he did not follow his normal sleeping pattern .
If he had not to go to Klessheim on 6 June, he would have slept as usual , til 10 or 11 H .But because of Klessheim,he was awake earlier.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10068
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jul 2021 20:00

Hi ljadw,

"I do not believe.....", "I am convinced.....", ".....I think.....", "I am convinced.....", "We don't know.....", "I believe....." are not substitutes for evidence or hard facts, neither of which you are offering.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. What makes you think Hitler had to be up early on 16 June? As I understand it, "He flew to Metz aboard his personal Condor aircraft on 16 June and then travelled by motorcade through the early hours of 17 June....." This wouldn't necessarily have required him to be up early. What do you know for a fact about this that you are not yet telling us? Anything?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14483
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 16 Jul 2021 06:35

He had to travel to the airfield on 16 June . And for 17 June : he was going by car through the EARLY hours (as YOU said ) .Thus ....
Last edited by ljadw on 16 Jul 2021 06:46, edited 1 time in total.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14483
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 16 Jul 2021 06:44

For 6 June : Hitler had to be at Klessheim BEFORE the arrival of the Hungarians at the railway station of Salzburg, thus he needed to be awake 3 hours earlier .
It is as simple as that .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14483
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 16 Jul 2021 07:00

When Hitler arrived at Margival on 16 June, Rommel and Rundstedt were already there waiting for him . How long were they there ? NOT 5 minutes before his arrival, but at least one hour .
It is the same for Hitler :he had to be at Klessheim a long time before the arrival of the Hungarians which was expected to happen in the early afternoon,expected,because there was a war going on and one could not be sure of the moment they would arrive ,there was a margin,thus Hitler had to be at Klessheim long before the expected arrival ,otherwise it could be that the Hungarians had to wait for his arrival .

Boby
Member
Posts: 2735
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 17:22
Location: Spain

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Boby » 16 Jul 2021 10:51

According to Speidel, conference started at 9 a.m., 17 June.

User avatar
Hans1906
Banned
Posts: 4560
Joined: 06 Jan 2020 23:13
Location: Deutschland

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Hans1906 » 16 Jul 2021 14:37

To somehow tie the whole thing to a Hollywood movie from the 1960s is a real hoot.
The link to the YouTube clip remained personally in my memory, it was nothing more.

The later Bundeswehr was also led into this game, what a nonsense, hard to beat!

Keep it up, make my day! 8-) :lol:


Hans
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 9582
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Jul 2021 19:36

Flipping though a couple books on my shelf there plenty of eyewitness evidence Hitler was asleep to late morning 6th June. Peter Margaritas 'Countdown to D Day' is about as good as any here. While the generals may have incentive to blame Hitler for the delay in releasing the Pz Reserve, most of the evidence for him sleeping in comes from his personal staff & they did not have a dog in that fight. Anecdotal evidence should always be questioned, but that question here leads to agreement by Hitlers personal staff & Jodel that he was not awake until after 10:00 & available until 11:00

03:00 Admiral Krancke reviews the previous & current reports, then orders a telephone report to OB West & OKW on the navy information on enemy activity. This is shortly after Dr Morel recalled giving Hitler a medication & seeing him to bed.

04:45 Telex from OB West to OKW requesting the Pz Reserve be released

05:15 (?) Phone call from Warlimont to OKW, speaks to Jodel. Jodel refuses request to release Pz Reserve. When pressed he states he will not awake Hitler with the vague information he has.

05:30. Hitlers Naval Aide Adm von Puttkamer reviews the reports from Adm Krancke & OB West & debated awakening Hitler. Decides against it.

07:30. Jodel telephones OB West requesting a up date on the situation. Runsteadt confronts him immediately about the Pz Reserve. Jodel states they cannot be released. Blummintritt witnesses both sides of this exchange.

Between 09:00 & 10:30 there is a growing discussion between Hitlers aides & Jodel at OKW. The times for events vary by participant but they triangulate to Hitlers Army Adjutant Schmundt awakening him a little after 10:00. Possibly as a late as 10:30. Schmundt gives Hitler the reason for awakening him with a very short brief on the reports from OB West & Adm Krancke.

11:00 Hitler appears dressed & is ready for a brief from Jodel & other OKW staff. The brief drags on with Hitler concluding this is a diversion & postponing a decision on release of reserves until later. He departs after 12:00

The next conference with the OKW staff comes a little after 14:00. Its not clear to me if this meeting is at Berchtesgaden, or elsewhere. The result is Hitler agrees to release the Pz Reserve & that order is forwarded to OB West NLT 15:00

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14483
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 16 Jul 2021 21:01

The conference with the OKW staff at 14.00 was in Klessheim ,as Margaritis said that Hitler left the Berghof after 12.00 and Die Welt said that he arrived at Klessheim at 13.00 .
Die Welt said also that Hitler received some vague information about Overlord at 111.00, but this does not mean that he was awake at 11.00.
I also disagree with the claim of Margaritis that Hitler left the Berghof only after 12.00,because Hitler had to be in Klessheim before, long before the arrival of the Hungarians and these were expected in the early afternoon ..
We also do not know how Hitler was going to Klessheim : by car or by train ? Given the allied air superiority,it is probable that he went by train :a column of German cars would be an ideal prey for the allied aircraft .

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8108
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2021 22:25

If Hitler concluded it was a diversion and postponed the decision at 11:00 it is almost certain he would do the same earlier - even if he had been awakened at 07:30.
So it didn't matter how long he slept and the discussion is pointless.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 14483
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 17 Jul 2021 08:58

Boby wrote:
16 Jul 2021 10:51
According to Speidel, conference started at 9 a.m., 17 June.
My mistake .

Return to “WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic”