BBs at knife fighting range

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Delta Tank
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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by Delta Tank » 08 Apr 2021 18:10

Carl,

I thought the Hiei was sunk first and then several days later our BBs sank the Kirishima. Or do I have it in reverse order?

Mike

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 Apr 2021 22:01

No you are correct. I will change my post.

Krishma was nailed a couple days later by Lee with the Washington & S Dakota. The Hiei & Krishna were two of the four Kngo class battle cruisers Japan had built in the UK. Delivered in 1914. In the 1920s they started a program to upgrade their protection & other features. Evidently not enough upgrade since US cruisers severely damaged the Hiei. The 16" projectiles of the Washington wrecked the Krishima.

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Jack Nisley
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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by Jack Nisley » 15 Aug 2021 21:02

The 335 pound 8" AP "heavy" projectile was only issued to the Baltimore (CA-68) and later class ships. The Portland and San Francisco would be using 260 pound Mk 19 AP. According to www.navweaps.com, these could penetrate 10" of side armor at 9,000 yards or less.

At http://navweaps.com/index_lundgren/index_lundgren.php, there are several articles about the Washington/South Dakota/Krishima fight with very interesting hit/damage assessment.

Jack

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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by OpanaPointer » 15 Aug 2021 21:15

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Apr 2021 07:17
Hi Guys,

Doesn't closing below a certain distance reduce effectiveness? I thought rounds were ideally meant to follow a high trajectory to fall on the opposing ship's less protected deck. The closer one gets, the lower the trajectory and the more the better protecting side armour comes into play.

I presume that each type of gun has its own ideal trajectory and range?

In ignorance,

Sid
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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Aug 2021 15:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Apr 2021 07:17
Hi Guys,

Doesn't closing below a certain distance reduce effectiveness? I thought rounds were ideally meant to follow a high trajectory to fall on the opposing ship's less protected deck. The closer one gets, the lower the trajectory and the more the better protecting side armour comes into play.

I presume that each type of gun has its own ideal trajectory and range?

In ignorance,

Sid
As the relative angle of impact falls to 17 degrees or less the number of ricochets with no penetration or detonation rises significantly. Back in my artillery days this was a routine consideration in gauging effect on a target, and safety for small ranges/impact areas in training. With the howitzers we could easily vary the propellant charge to achieve preferred angle of fall, but that is not a option with most naval cannon.

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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Aug 2021 15:48

Delta Tank wrote:
07 Apr 2021 15:01
CA vs BB?

USS San Francisco vs IJN Hiei, 2,500 yards to 5,000 yard range! That is a knife fight!

Mike
Two destroyers closed to under 1000 meters range on the Hieis port side. The main guns and a portion of the secondary battery could not be depressed enough to hit the pair. Its believed their ammunition did not penetrate the armor, but their hits were those which incapacitated the battle bridge crew including the Admiral, and they stripped the port side of radio masts, searchlights, exterior ladders, antiaircraft guns, and much else of any utility. Started several fires as well.

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Takao
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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by Takao » 16 Aug 2021 22:54

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
16 Aug 2021 15:48
Delta Tank wrote:
07 Apr 2021 15:01
CA vs BB?

USS San Francisco vs IJN Hiei, 2,500 yards to 5,000 yard range! That is a knife fight!

Mike
Two destroyers closed to under 1000 meters range on the Hieis port side. The main guns and a portion of the secondary battery could not be depressed enough to hit the pair. Its believed their ammunition did not penetrate the armor, but their hits were those which incapacitated the battle bridge crew including the Admiral, and they stripped the port side of radio masts, searchlights, exterior ladders, antiaircraft guns, and much else of any utility. Started several fires as well.
Not to mention...gunfire control.

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Re: BBs at knife fighting range

Post by OpanaPointer » 16 Aug 2021 23:13

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
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