Criticism of British Infantry during Op Epsom

[daveshoup2MD]

Nick - interesting choice of a map; from: https://www.historyvshollywood.com/reel ... vate-ryan/ including the British 6th Airborne but not the US 82nd and 101st airborne divisions... from your source:

"The United States and Britain both landed approximately 54,000 troops. Canada landed 21,400 troops. ... The estimated number of allied deaths during the 24-hour period known as D-Day is roughly 4,414 (2,501 Americans and 1,913 Allies)."

I didn't realise that diagram was controversial or from a dubious source.This diagram from Shutterstock:

Seems like honors were quite equal among the assault elements from all three armies, unless you were trying to suggest something else?

I can report that the "Poles lost more than 500 men" according to https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 41762.html and elsewhere I hear that a Polish Division landed, Polish aircraft flew air support, Polish ships supported the assault on the beaches. I believe at least some of their dead are recognised on the memorials.

But other actual casualties seem to be something of a mystery - how about the thousands of our French allies who gave their lives to free their country from the Nazi heel - did nobody bother to count their dead? I hear there is no mention of them at the memorials in Normandy.

Seriously?

The estimated number of allied deaths during the 24-hour period known as D-Day is roughly 4,414 (2,501 Americans and 1,913 Allies)

The statement is about Allied casualties on the DAY of the landing. The Polish and French divisions committed to the OVERLORD force did not come ashore until days later. There was a small French commando unit - roughly an understrength company - and no Polish ground forces committed the day of the assault.

[daveshoup2MD]

Not sure the point you are making here.

IRRC, there were Polish airmen and sailors on D Day. The Polish Division did not land until the end of July and oits first action was Op Totalize 8 August. It played an important part in the Falaise Gap battle - almost, but not quite overwhelmed on the Mace feature. There is a Polish Cemetery on the Falaise-Caen Road, which I think added military graves to an existing cemetery for Polish steel workers.

Only one French unit landed on D Day - No 10 Inter allied Commando, with Commandant Kiefer as featured in the climax to the Longest Day. There is a memorial on Sword Beach and a Rue Commandant Keifer. The French were there almost through an oversight. The British and US Governments were keen to avoid giving any role to the Free French to avoid giving De Gaulle political leverage. The Inter allied Commando was not obviously French and part of No 1 Special Service (Commando) Brigade who were not going to leave comrades out of the Big Show.

Thanks.

[David Thompson]

A post from Michael Kenny, which fell short of AHF's standard of civility, was removed pursuant to forum rules,

[NickA]

Not sure the point you are making here.

I'm trying to get to the history of these events and figure who are the heroes and who are the villains.

Not sure the point you are making here. IRRC, there were Polish airmen and sailors on D Day. The Polish Division did not land until the end of July and oits first action was Op Totalize 8 August. It played an important part in the Falaise Gap battle - almost, but not quite overwhelmed on the Mace feature. There is a Polish Cemetery on the Falaise-Caen Road, which I think added military graves to an existing cemetery for Polish steel workers.

Thankyou - the Polish infantry (understandably) were not right at the cutting edge (as their airmen and sailors were) but nevertheless acted like true allies.

Not sure the point you are making here. Only one French unit landed on D Day - No 10 Inter allied Commando, with Commandant Kiefer as featured in the climax to the Longest Day. There is a memorial on Sword Beach and a Rue Commandant Keifer. The French were there almost through an oversight. The British and US Governments were keen to avoid giving any role to the Free French to avoid giving De Gaulle political leverage. The Inter allied Commando was not obviously French and part of No 1 Special Service (Commando) Brigade who were not going to leave comrades out of the Big Show.

You make it look as if France (as a nation) and the Free French (as a group) were never recognised as allies. I don't think I'm "making a point", only distilling down who took part in this gigantic effort against the Nazis.

Is it true that the French 33rd SS Division commanded by Hauptsturmfuhrer Henri Fenet defended Berlin right up to the death of Hitler (April 30 1945)? And beyond?

[Sean Oliver]

Hi,
Max Hastings (Overlord, pp.169-170) quotes excerpts from an interview (conducted in July '83) with 'Major Charles Richardson of 6th KSOB [who] came out of EPSOM , his first battle, overcome with horror and disgust' about the Bn's experience during Op EPSOM and which includes (on p.170) the remark that:

After the battle [Richardson recalled that the KOSBs] talked about 'the spectacle of the Royal Scots Fusiliers cresting a hill to find the Germans dug in on the reverse slope, "something we had never envisaged".'

This was later used [and page referenced by Russell A. Hart in his hatchet-job on the British Army in Normandy (chapter 8 of Clash of Arms, p.313) in the following terms:

'EPSOM clearly demonstrated the inexperience of British troops and the weakness of their training as poor coordination and a failure to comprehend German defensive tactics marred the operation. Soldiers of the Scottish Division, in particular, suffered heavily when the enemy surprised and ambushed them from a classic reverse-slope position. […]'

...
Regards
Tom

It appears the actual source is not Max Hastings and Russel Hart and their irrational hatred of the British Army, but a comment from a British Army officer named Maj. Charles Richardson, who described a neighboring British regiment's surprise at encountering dug-in enemy defenders.

It's understandable this aspect wasn't mentioned in the KSF or KOSB WD.

[gebhk]

Just to wrap up the Polish theme, although the Polish Air Force, Navy and Merchant Marine were heavily engaged, the former two in direct combat, there were no Polish casualties recorded that day according to the PISM Schedule of soldiers of the Polish Armed Forces abroad, killed and deceased in 1939-46. The only loss that day was rifleman Anczel Weinstock, who sadly died of natural causes in Palestine, where he was buried in the Jewish Cemetary of Rehowoth.

[Michael Kenny]

It appears the actual source is not Max Hastings and Russel Hart and their irrational hatred of the British Army, but a comment from a British Army officer named Maj. Charles Richardson, who described a neighboring British regiment's surprise at encountering dug-in enemy defenders.

It's understandable this aspect wasn't mentioned in the KSF or KOSB WD.

\

Going through the maps and air views now and ( at first glance) there is no 'reverse slope ' position in the line of advance on St Manvieu Norrey. The only 'dip' before St Manvieu is La Mue and basically it is just a wet ditch.

Screenshot_365.jpg

The only real crest is on the way to Cheux

Screenshot_f362.jpg

and the next dip is in the centre of the town.

June 7th Norrey en Bessin bc.jpg

[Sean Oliver]

Those LOS diagrams are great, but they do show subtle dips and crests, which need only be 3-5 meters difference to conceal a tank from LOS, and far less than that to hide a few dug-in MG-42s, i.e. a reverse slope. There are also slight undulations on the flanks of the axis which could conceal a MG or 2 until the last moment.
That said, Maj. Roberts seems to be saying the RSF were walking toward the Germans, and when they reached a crest, they suddenly took fire from some dug-in Germans directly if front of them which they hadn't expected to find, a la Wellington.
This seems less about 'reverse slope tactics' and more about inadequate reconnaissance preparation, followed by moving forward as if they weren't expecting any resistance for a considerable distance.

[Tom from Cornwall]

That said, Maj. Roberts seems to be saying the RSF were walking toward the Germans, and when they reached a crest, they suddenly took fire from some dug-in Germans directly if front of them which they hadn't expected to find, a la Wellington.
This seems less about 'reverse slope tactics' and more about inadequate reconnaissance preparation, followed by moving forward as if they weren't expecting any resistance for a considerable distance.

Did you read the first post in the thread? You double "seems" indicates the worth of the original quote and the extent to which it was stretched by both Hastings and Russell A. Hart [mis-]used it to bolster their own biased opinions.

You suggest that:

[This seems ... more about inadequate reconnaissance preparation, followed by moving forward as if they weren't expecting any resistance for a considerable distance

On what evidence do you base this statement?

Regards

Tom

[Stoat Coat]

John Buckley noted similar criticism in his books “Monty’s Men”, but about British commanders rather than the infantry.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Picking up on this thread again, I've just seen a twitter thread by the military historian Jonathan Ware with relevant information about pre-Normandy British infantry training referring to 'reverse-slope' issues:

https://twitter.com/ReassessHistory?ref ... r%5Eauthor

He quotes a veteran from 53rd Infantry Division who says on this thread:

https://twitter.com/ReassessHistory/sta ... 8264913926

Epsom 53 Div - reverse slope.png

All the evidence suggests that British training had stressed the importance of occupying reverse slope positions and therefore it seems the veteran who Max Hastings originally quoted was misremembering after 40 years. Also, IMHO, a warning for those using anecdotes to build a general picture about the competence of an army in training and in combat.

Regards

Tom

[Michael Kenny]

, I've just seen a twitter thread by the military historian Jonathan Ware with relevant information about pre-Normandy British infantry training referring to 'reverse-slope' issues:

https://twitter.com/ReassessHistory?ref ... r%5Eauthor

How desperate do you have to be for views that you irritate viewers to your site with completely useless gifs?

[Tom from Cornwall]

How desperate do you have to be for views that you irritate viewers to your site with completely useless gifs?

That does seem quite common on Twitter. I'm not always put off by the odd "gif" if it makes me laugh - I'd agree that there is definitely excessive use on that thread though. I don't know enough about how Twitter works to understand why anyone would use them in such profusion - views, likes, money? I'll have to ask Elon!

Incidentally, I can't seem to find a copy of his book about 53rd Division anywhere either, I hope it finally gets published as that division's contribution in Normandy seems very much overlooked.

Regards

Tom

[Sheldrake]

Jonathan Ware is doing a good job promoting his book and an associated battlefield tour.

The problem with avoiding forward slopes is that it is not always possible.

Sure, in defence you can site your main defensive positions on reverse slopes and put a screen on the forward slope. If, however, the mission is to turn the enemy out of his reverse slope positions, at some point the attacker is going to have to venture over the ridge. Since this was the motif for OP Epsom and the later battles around Hill 112, banging on about avoiding a forward slope suggests a lack of military knowledge.

There is no easy DS solution to an attack on a reverse slope position, whether in Napoleonic or C20th times. The solution adopted by the British in WW2, using a creeping barrage to support the infantry is as good as any.

[Tom from Cornwall]

There is no easy DS solution to an attack on a reverse slope position,

Indeed, and not even a problem that 6 RSF faced on the first day of EPSOM.

the 44 Bde war diary for 26 Jun 44 notes that:

6 RSF had some tough village fighting in St MAUVIEU and a lot of trouble with snipers. They had captured most of their objectives by 1600 hrs but suffered heavy casualties in rifle coys.

Regards

Tom