First Panther tank in the West

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Michael Kenny
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Re: First Panther tank in the West

Post by Michael Kenny » 05 Sep 2022 02:52

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
04 Sep 2022 22:00
I believe the first were at Anzio, during the last stages of FISCHFANG in late February and early March 1944. At least a couple were disabled or bogged inside American lines and later evacuated to England for evaluation.
The first Panther to arrive in England was an example captured during Kursk and it took 10 months to deliver.
Kursk Panther at Bovington (4)-tilemm.jpg

The first technical examination was done on this example and as it was the only example they had it could not be tested to destruction. The report was very brief because they did not get the vehicle until May 22nd and it was finalised/issued on May 25th not long before D-Day. It could not have been very widely distributed or read by the troops. This is the report that first mentions the possibility to be able deflect a shot down into the drivers compartment and, in my opinion, is the single source that became legend and widely mentioned in memoirs etc with various claims 'they' heard it was done by trooper X in Regiment Y on date Z. I believe Andrew Wilson's 'Flamethrower' set that ball rolling.
Screensfhot_352.jpg
After June 6th captured Panthers and field shoots were 10 a penny and the troops in the field had no need of 'technical reports'.

To show how easy it is for the unwary to mix up these captured tanks here is an example captured at Anzio
Panther 433 weights KO May 23rd 1944 Anzio (2).jpg
which just happens to have the exact same number as the Kursk example.

The first mention to the public was in early April and The Times has this photo in the April 4 1944 edition
Times April 4 1944 Panther 433 weights.jpg
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205094908

I have not looked up the source of this example.
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Richard Anderson
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Re: First Panther tank in the West

Post by Richard Anderson » 05 Sep 2022 04:40

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
04 Sep 2022 22:00
Secondary sources suggest these were part of a Lehr or training/demonstration battalion.
The first Panthers engaged in the west were a Zug from 3./Panzer-Regiment 4., which were committed on a terrain reconnaissance on 17 February 1944 and ran into what was probably the four M-10 3" GMC of the 1st Platoon, C Company, 645th TD Battalion, supported by 57mm (and still some 37mm) AT guns of Cannon Company and 2d Battalion, 157th Infantry. The Germans lost three tanks, the Americans none.

The Germans received their first nine Panthers on 13 December 1943 and the last on 24 January 1944, coincidentally just in time for them to be sent to Anzio under Stab Panzer-Regiment 69.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: First Panther tank in the West

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 06 Sep 2022 15:28

Richard Anderson wrote:
05 Sep 2022 04:40

The first Panthers engaged in the west were a Zug from 3./Panzer-Regiment 4., which were committed on a terrain reconnaissance on 17 February 1944 and ran into what was probably the four M-10 3" GMC of the 1st Platoon, C Company, 645th TD Battalion, supported by 57mm (and still some 37mm) AT guns of Cannon Company and 2d Battalion, 157th Infantry. The Germans lost three tanks, the Americans none.
Terrain recon in close proximity to the enemy with multiple large vehicles. Wonder what caused that to go south. Only thing that could have made that worse would be fire support from some mortars, artillery, or loitering aircraft. I suppose a mine field too...

Another description of this would be testing the Panthers against all the current and obsolete US AT guns. It would be ironic if the destruction was by the 37mm AT guns.

Richard Anderson
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Re: First Panther tank in the West

Post by Richard Anderson » 06 Sep 2022 18:12

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
06 Sep 2022 15:28
Terrain recon in close proximity to the enemy with multiple large vehicles. Wonder what caused that to go south. Only thing that could have made that worse would be fire support from some mortars, artillery, or loitering aircraft. I suppose a mine field too...
To be fair, I suspect they were essentially screwed by a combination of their inexperience with their vehicles, overconfidence, the crappy operational plan, the terrain and weather, and Allied resistance, and were simply trying their best to make something of a bad situation.

They had about eight weeks of training on a brand new and temperamental, if impressive, vehicle. They were organizationally complete for about three weeks and never had exercised as a complete battalion.

The plan envisaged a massive armored assault following up the infantry gains but the unit itself was a bunch of spare parts, thrown together under a staff that had been organized barely more than a month before. Steady rain meant the only routes of advance were the few paved roads and whatever other firm terrain they could find. I suspect the platoon mission was simply to test the off road conditions and they got over eager...plus the infantry they were supposed to support had been trashed by the American and British artillery and what was left was probably pretty disoriented. I remember years ago we had a fascinating conversation with one of the infantry battalion commanders of 29. Panzer-Grenadier and his description of FISCHFANG was pretty harrowing.

Anyway, no report of losses to mines that day, but the next day another platoon was dispatched to support Pz.Abt. 103 near Aprilia and they evidently lost all five Panthers on the way to mud, mines, and breakdowns.
Another description of this would be testing the Panthers against all the current and obsolete US AT guns. It would be ironic if the destruction was by the 37mm AT guns.
Somewhere in the files of TDI in Chris's basement there is an account of what I suspect is this action that is more detailed than the battalion report. They identified the Panthers as "Mark VI" and the problem for the Germans was the TD positions were well concealed by farm buildings, they were in positions prepared for about ten days with multiple planned alternate positions, and the only approach on the road for the Germans forced them to expose their flank while moving to try to get a firing position. I did forget that all four TD were abandoned at the end of the action but because the supporting infantry had withdrawn and they had no way out of their positions, again because of the heavy rainfall of the previous days. Anyway, almost certainly all the German losses were to 3" guns.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: First Panther tank in the West

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 07 Sep 2022 18:36

Following common reconnaissance practice with mechanized units, I'd have first guessed the Panthers were to provide covering fire for other vehicles doing the scouting. This description suggests the battalion commander did not have any scout vehicles, or the scout/overwatch drill broke down & the Panthers got caught as described.

Richard Anderson
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Re: First Panther tank in the West

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Sep 2022 20:20

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
07 Sep 2022 18:36
Following common reconnaissance practice with mechanized units, I'd have first guessed the Panthers were to provide covering fire for other vehicles doing the scouting. This description suggests the battalion commander did not have any scout vehicles, or the scout/overwatch drill broke down & the Panthers got caught as described.
Well, the German battalion commander did have scout vehicles, an entire platoon of them in his battalion headquarters. It was the Aufklärungs-Zug, or "Reconnaissance Platoon". The thing was, it was comprised of five Panther tanks. :D Why it was not employed in this reconnaissance is a mystery but it may have been otherwise occupied or its tanks broken down.

The American accounts see two engagements separated by some time, so the Germans were persistent.

Anyway, this is the exact opposite of the American tank battalion where the Reconnaissance Platoon was comprised of an officer and 20 enlisted in a single halftrack and three jeeps.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

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