A Bridge Too Far

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
mottii
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A Bridge Too Far

Post by mottii » 18 Apr 2002 17:21

The British had photos of German armor in the vicinity of Arnhem.
The Dutch underground also told of the armor. The British did
not trust the Dutch nor believe the photos. The result is well
known. Had the Germans lost the battle the war may very well
have ended 4 months sooner saving countless lives and
preventing the Russians from overrunning eastern Europe.
The British defeat gave Stalin the trump card at Yalta

Logan Hartke
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Post by Logan Hartke » 18 Apr 2002 17:28

Yep, Ike should've gone with Patton.

Logan Hartke

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mike262752
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Re: A Bridge Too Far

Post by mike262752 » 18 Apr 2002 23:27

mottii wrote: preventing the Russians from overrunning eastern Europe.
do you seriously think Stalin would have packed up and gone home?

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Raf
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Post by Raf » 19 Apr 2002 16:24

I agree with Mike. After all, Arnhem would had no effect on Stalin's decisions.
Besides, the Arnhem-campaign was more an agreement between Eisenhower and Montgomery than a really strategic plan. Monty was left out of the big action for several time, according to his opinium, and he talked Ike into a campaign that was, viewing the rest of the more important campaigns that had to follow, of just a little strategic value.
It was badly planned and the troops had not enough time to prepare properly.

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 19 Apr 2002 17:19

It was one of the many mistake made by Montgommery during the war. It was an important battle and the Germans took advantage of it. True, The Allies had photos of the Germans panzer division of Model but they didn't take it seriously... just like 3 months later in the battle of the Bulge.

On September 14 1944, several sources reported large formations of panzer troops, tanks and armored vehicules encamped in the north of Arnhem. There were units at Beekbergen, Epse and along the Ijssel river. There was even a startling report of 20 to 30 tiger tanks. Other sources indicate the presence of the 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen...

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admfisher
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market garden

Post by admfisher » 19 Apr 2002 20:23

Even had the British and americans made it. Good would it do Romania or Poland.
That would of lead to more hard battles sure the allies may of gotten to Berlin, but not much further.

The ignorance of the photos seems to have been done because the british did not trust the resistance that much and their own photos only got in the way. Monty wanted success. Maybe this was part of his competition to out do the americans.

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 19 Apr 2002 20:41

Surely Ike would have gone with Bradley's idea's rather than the reckless Patton

:D From the Shire

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Lady From Hell
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Re: market garden

Post by Lady From Hell » 20 Apr 2002 04:37

admfisher wrote:Even had the British and americans made it. Good would it do Romania or Poland.
That would of lead to more hard battles sure the allies may of gotten to Berlin, but not much further.

The ignorance of the photos seems to have been done because the british did not trust the resistance that much and their own photos only got in the way. Monty wanted success. Maybe this was part of his competition to out do the americans.
:x :roll:

Hi :wink:

So very true what you say about trusting the Dutch Resistance as we had already knew how far we could trust them as we had already had our own people Dropped in the area to See who was who. Yes & the Dutch People already had about about FiFty Thousand or more Volunteers in German Armed forces So that is only one small reason why we did not Trust the DUTCH RESISTANCE 8 8O . But i will say that the ones that worked with us did a good job. But there were a lot of people who had said that they helped us is not true as i found a lot were turncoats. :oops: :x

My experience in Battle in Holland & elswhere Thought me a lesson trust no one the first time as you can be fooled by what is called freindleness . As i have had been there . Fortunately I had a lot of experience in Battle & other things to still be able to say it as i had seen it.

Yes I was there during to Battle of the Bridge too far & The Battle of the Bulge that the Americans got into by there own Fault . More as i go along. 8)

WW2 Canadian Army Veteran Who was there.

Lady From Hell ( L.F.H.) :D

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admfisher
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Re: market garden

Post by admfisher » 20 Apr 2002 20:07

Lady From Hell wrote:
admfisher wrote:Even had the British and americans made it. Good would it do Romania or Poland.
That would of lead to more hard battles sure the allies may of gotten to Berlin, but not much further.

The ignorance of the photos seems to have been done because the british did not trust the resistance that much and their own photos only got in the way. Monty wanted success. Maybe this was part of his competition to out do the americans.
:x :roll:

Hi :wink:

So very true what you say about trusting the Dutch Resistance as we had already knew how far we could trust them as we had already had our own people Dropped in the area to See who was who. Yes & the Dutch People already had about about FiFty Thousand or more Volunteers in German Armed forces So that is only one small reason why we did not Trust the DUTCH RESISTANCE 8 8O . But i will say that the ones that worked with us did a good job. But there were a lot of people who had said that they helped us is not true as i found a lot were turncoats. :oops: :x

My experience in Battle in Holland & elswhere Thought me a lesson trust no one the first time as you can be fooled by what is called freindleness . As i have had been there . Fortunately I had a lot of experience in Battle & other things to still be able to say it as i had seen it.

Yes I was there during to Battle of the Bridge too far & The Battle of the Bulge that the Americans got into by there own Fault . More as i go along. 8)

WW2 Canadian Army Veteran Who was there.

Lady From Hell ( L.F.H.) :D
Well my grandfather was with you then. It is true what you say about the fact that so many Dutch had decided to fight with the Germans.
But the intell. was there, it proved that a Panzer division was there reequiping. As you pointed the British put there own people on the ground to see.

To bad we cannot find an answer as why the intell was ignored but then maybe time will raise the cloak one day..

As for the US and the Battle of the Bulge, well I can agree with you there also. But in there defence even the germans were surprised at the attack.

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HaEn
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Arnhem

Post by HaEn » 21 Apr 2002 04:08

Hello LFH. Good to see that you're still around. You mentioned as you did before that you were at Arnhem (the bridge too far), and that you later also were in the Battle of the Bulge. How did you get back ? The troops that surrendered on the 26th of September '44, did not get back to their units, but went to p.o.w. camps. Were you with the few who DID make it back across the Rhine ? That would be very interesting to hear; so please give us some details on the how and when.
As far as the Dutch resistance goes, they were loosely organised, but still had a wealth of knowledge to share. Too bad for the Allied that they did not want to listen. Many Lives could have been saved. But even when they got the info from their own troops in the field they still kept sending them in, when it should have been clear that the German resistance was far to great for light armored para's and glider troops.
Oh well, hindsight is alway 20-20. Gr. HN.

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HaEn
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computers

Post by HaEn » 22 Apr 2002 04:19

Hi, LFH. Somewhere you mentioned that you had been involved with computers just about from WWII on. That's interesting. Since you also mentioned that you were in that (Arnhem) area, did you get to see the German monster computer at Fliegerhorst DEELEN ?? It was three stories high and ran with radio diode vacuum tubes (rooms full of them). There was a mirror setup underground, three stories deep. When the Allied took the area, the above ground installation was mostly destroyed. Since they did not know how bad the underground area was booby trapped, they supposedly poured it full of concrete. Do you have any more info on it ?. I saw it once, when we were stationed there for a few days. (got chased away real fast). Looking forward to your report. Greetings. HN.

Timo
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Post by Timo » 22 Apr 2002 04:46

Too bad for the Allied that they did not want to listen. Many Lives could have been saved.
Apart from that, I think many Dutch resistance fighters who risked their lives gathering that info would have tought twice if they had known that the Allies would not believe them anyways.


Just my 2 cents.

Timo

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admfisher
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Post by admfisher » 22 Apr 2002 15:14

Timo from what we have seen posted here I think you hit something there.

The feeling of the people who risked there lives to get the photos and intormation. I wonder how they felt watching the bloody battles of Arnhem.

pdhinkle36ID
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MOVIE: a bridge too Far

Post by pdhinkle36ID » 22 Apr 2002 16:46

While the movie is fairly accurate, it shows the Air borne forces going in 10 miles from their landing zone. This change indicates they knew something about the Panzer Divison refitting there.
This was another attempt by the Brits to get usable Ports for unloading ships near the front. Supply lines were extended because they could not get a Port. Leading to many troubles!!

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Lady From Hell
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Re: Arnhem

Post by Lady From Hell » 24 Apr 2002 02:11

HaEn wrote:Hello LFH. Good to see that you're still around. You mentioned as you did before that you were at Arnhem (the bridge too far), and that you later also were in the Battle of the Bulge. How did you get back ? The troops that surrendered on the 26th of September '44, did not get back to their units, but went to p.o.w. camps. Were you with the few who DID make it back across the Rhine ? That would be very interesting to hear; so please give us some details on the how and when.
As far as the Dutch resistance goes, they were loosely organised, but still had a wealth of knowledge to share. Too bad for the Allied that they did not want to listen. Many Lives could have been saved. But even when they got the info from their own troops in the field they still kept sending them in, when it should have been clear that the German resistance was far to great for light armored para's and glider troops.
Oh well, hindsight is alway 20-20. Gr. HN.

:D Hi HaEn:

I have not answered some of the latest posts as i have been away traveling & seeing Doctors as well But just as soon as i can have some time i will be glad to answer all ? as they come up.

Yes HaEn i was doing Radar work in the area yopu had mentioned as well as the Large Computer we had used to lacate Mortars . We were called 1st Canadian Radar Battery. (More as i feel better.) Yes it was a very close Secret for years,

Yes HaEn i have recvd notifician on the "Nederland Medal Of Honor "it has been awearded to me .No i cant go to the Embassy as other means of presentation are being arranged. If you would like More Just ask by personal Mail. :D

I will also tell you later about hoew i cvame to be in the Battle of the Bulge. I do beleve i had told you that before. Will write more as i feel better.

8) Lady From Hell ( L.F.H.) :wink:

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