OoB of German Units in June of 1941 on the Eastern Front

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Kunikov
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OoB of German Units in June of 1941 on the Eastern Front

Post by Kunikov » 27 Jul 2005 21:54

I have the OoB in "Germany the Second World War vol. IV", but what I'm looking for is the number of troops in various divisions, motorized, infantry, panzer, etc. Can anyone give me a source and some info on various units (Corps or Division) from the three army groups and their exact numbers in infantry, tanks, artillery, that sort of stuff?

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Bittrich
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Eastern Front

Post by Bittrich » 28 Jul 2005 04:50

I'd say for a start you may want to check out the book "Slaughterhouse". Glantz is one of the authors I can't remember who the other was. At anyrate the book has tables of organization of various divisions. For example a Panzer division and an Infantry Division did not contain the same number of men. Also the book has down to division level the units that fought on the Eastern front and brief histories of each unit and commanders. The Soviet side doesn't list every unit commander, I can only guess that such information is not available.

It's a start but if I understood your post correctly it should point you in the right direction. You may have to do some research though. Good luck.

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Post by Kunikov » 28 Jul 2005 05:00

I have the book and I'll look through it again, but that's not really what I meant. I know and can find what divisions were supposed to have, but what I want to know is how much of infantry, tanks, artillery, mortar, and the such they actually DID have on the eve of the invasion of the USSR.

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Unit Strenghts

Post by Bittrich » 28 Jul 2005 05:06

Kunikov,

Sorry I wasn't able to help much. I don't know if the specific information is available or not. I just figured that you know total number of men and tanks involved and if theoretical Divisional or Corps numbers were used it would help you out. Good luck and I appologize for not being more helpful.

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Re: Unit Strenghts

Post by Kunikov » 28 Jul 2005 05:54

Bittrich wrote:Kunikov,

Sorry I wasn't able to help much. I don't know if the specific information is available or not. I just figured that you know total number of men and tanks involved and if theoretical Divisional or Corps numbers were used it would help you out. Good luck and I appologize for not being more helpful.
Thanks for trying, I'm sure the information exists though.

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Post by Andreas » 28 Jul 2005 10:22

Kunikov

You have lost me now. Do you want to know the real numbers in each formation, as opposed to the TO&E numbers?

All the best

Andreas

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Post by Michate » 28 Jul 2005 14:26

I suspect Mueller-Hillebrand, "Das Heer", Vol. 2, contains some information what a division of a certain wave would have had at the eve of Barbarossa as well as a fairly detailed OoB of independent, non-divisional units.

Unfortunately it is hard to get and I do not have it by now. Perhaps it can be accessed via library interloan service.

Regards,
Michate

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Post by Kunikov » 28 Jul 2005 16:31

Andreas wrote:Kunikov

You have lost me now. Do you want to know the real numbers in each formation, as opposed to the TO&E numbers?

All the best

Andreas
Yes, for example, I have Glantz's "Colossus Reborn" there you can find what a rifle division was supposed to have in terms of everything I've listed (tanks, artillery, rifles, etc) as opposed to some examples of what rifle divisions, cavalry divisions, tank divisions, actually DID have on the eve of the war. I'd like to see if the Germans experienced any such problems.

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Post by Andreas » 28 Jul 2005 16:42

Ah, okay.

In general the answer will be 'no'. German divisions if anything were likely to be overstrength at this stage, and very well equipped with materiel.

I see what I can do in terms of detailed information.

All the best

Andreas

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Post by Kunikov » 28 Jul 2005 16:52

Andreas wrote:Ah, okay.

In general the answer will be 'no'. German divisions if anything were likely to be overstrength at this stage, and very well equipped with materiel.

I see what I can do in terms of detailed information.

All the best

Andreas
Thanks, sources would be good too, I'd like to give some meaning when I put the numbers down in my paper :)

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Post by Andreas » 28 Jul 2005 16:56

Kunikov

Not to worry.

'More detailed information' = sources & numbers.

In my book.

All the best

Andreas

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Post by Andreas » 28 Jul 2005 18:37


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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 28 Jul 2005 19:06

Andreas wrote:Let's start with numbers:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/battles.htm#barb
That's excellent, I'd also like to know was there (I assume there was) a standard that these panzer divisions should have followed (like they should have had X number of Pz I's and Y Pz II's and Z Pz III's)?

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Post by Andreas » 28 Jul 2005 19:18

Yes there was:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zus ... sion41.htm

More detail in Jentz 'Panzertruppen'.

But not all divisions followed it. E.g. 6.PD had a vast number of tanks because all the operational 35(t) models went to it. Normally there would be two leichte (III or 38(t)) and one mittlere Kompanie (IV) in an Abteilung. Then you get lots of IIs in recon/liason jobs. Is were normally relegated to rear-area duties, or often given to the divisional pioneers, since they were considered useless (rightfully so).

It is much more tricky for the horsed/legged infantry divisions, where every wave had a somewhat different organisation, manpower mix, and equipment. In general you can consider divisions of the 1. Welle (1-21, I think) as the sort-of elite. In general all infantry divisions in 1941 were equipped with a standard frame organisation of 3 regiments with 3 battalions each, and standard divisional support troops. Also an artillery regiment with 1 heavy and three light battalions. They could reach up to 17-18,000 men per division.

Motorised infantry divisions (ID (mot)) had a more standard organisation of two regiments with two battalions each, but the same amount of artillery. So they were quite a lot weaker in terms of infantry.

All the best

Andreas

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Post by Kunikov » 28 Jul 2005 19:21

Do you think Jentzs' books are worth getting? I've seen them, but never bothered to get them, also thank you for the time you're taking out to help me :), greatly appreciated!

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