SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 26 Dec 2015 21:33

history1 wrote:More likely an anti-tank gun crew with a flag for the airplane spotter to avoid being caught in friendly fire.
Correct about the flag, but not really an anti-tank gun crew, since they didn't fight any tanks / armored vehicles at the time.

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Seiyojin » 26 Dec 2015 23:14

history1 wrote:Referring the last photo with the USHMM caption " SS Soldiers from the SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" in Croatia hide with their guns [...]"
More likely an anti-tank gun crew with a flag for the airplane spotter to avoid being caught in friendly fire.
True, however clothing fits with the picture before and PE had some small AT guns as well.

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 27 Dec 2015 13:11

They did have some AT guns indeed (which were hardly used against tanks).

This particular gun is an 1915 Skoda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoda_75_mm_Model_15

The photo was taken during one of their earliest actions, Jan. 1943.

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by history1 » 27 Dec 2015 19:39

Well, I didn´t claim that they did actually fight tanks in the photo. But a well placed shot against barricades/emplacement in a rock wall were the oponent is hiding is sure not appreciated by the latter.
On the other hand we know nowadays that Syrian rebels are using TOW missiles, originally an anti-tank weapon, for firing at human groups and even single persons. And that by an unit price of ~180.000 US-$!

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 27 Dec 2015 21:24

All goes without saying, no worries, I was just making it clear for the first-time readers for what such guns were (not) used by this unit, to avoid a possible confusion/misleading.

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Seiyojin » 29 Dec 2015 20:37

Just found on ebay, could be from PE. Any thoughts? Image

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 29 Dec 2015 20:46

Seiyojin wrote:Just found on ebay, could be from PE. Any thoughts?
Nah, with no unit insignia visible, it is impossible to tell. Could be any unit.

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 30 Dec 2015 21:11

WARNING - the English edition of Otto Kumm's "Vorwärts, Prinz Eugen!" was censored and changed (clearly for the political/national interests), and thus is different from the original. It was translated by Joseph Welsh (proof reading: Tom Wilson) and published by J. J. Fedorowicz Publishing Inc., Winnipeg, 1995. I haven't compared the entire texts of both editions, but take a look only at this, very important part, in which Kumm describes a (today still) very controversial topic, the chetniks (who were British allies):

Original (page 52):
Disziplin und Bewaffnung sind relativ gut, gegenüber den anderen jugoslawischen Volks- und Glaubensgruppen sind sie unberechenbar, weshalb es oft zu Übergriffen gegen kroatische Dörfer oder muselmanische Frauen kommt. Als stille Freunde haben sie die Engländer...
The real translation of the original:
Their discipline and armament was relatively good, their behavior towards other Yugoslav ethnic and religious groups was unpredictable, and they often assaulted Croatian villages or Muslim women. As their silent partners, they had the English...
The translation from the English edition of the book (page 28):
Their discipline and armament was relatively good, in contrast to the other Yugoslavian popular groups. They had the English as their silent partners...
The assaults on villages and women of other nations/religions obviously didn't fit well with the part about them being England's allies. Also, the previous part was altered in such a way so it would seem that they were more disciplined and better armed than "other Yugoslav popular groups" (which would mean the partisans). And there are more changes of the original text. It is an absolute disgrace.

Ivan
Last edited by Ivan Ž. on 31 Dec 2015 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by ML59 » 30 Dec 2015 21:36

That is a very unpleasant finding and, I would say, a very strange one, considering the very limited diffusion of such specialist books (I guess that it has been printed in few thousand copies, maybe 2.000?). I'm inclined to believe that editor's political faith or inclination could also have a role.

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 30 Dec 2015 21:52

Important: the quote in German comes from the 2007 edition. English translation is from 1995. Does anyone have the original, first German edition (1978) and could he/she please check whether the text in question is the same. Because at the moment there is an option that a change could had been made in a newer German edition by someone, for some other political/national interests.

As I wrote, it is on page 52 in the 2007 German edition (part before the text about Himmler's visit, which is right before the title "Geschichte des Lichtmeßzuges des Art.Rgt.7").

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by G. Trifkovic » 31 Dec 2015 00:06

Hi Ivan,

the English translation is definitively flawed; the 1978 German version is identical to the one from 2007. Well spotted.

Cheers,

G.
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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 31 Dec 2015 00:12

Cheers, Gaius, and thanks for the fast assistance.

Ivan

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 02 Jan 2016 01:45

Ivan Ž. wrote:WARNING - the English edition of Otto Kumm's "Vorwärts, Prinz Eugen!" was censored and changed
This is terrible. Whichever part I compare, there turns out to be some censorship.

At the end of the book, there is a text by Wilhelm Ebeling about their Christmas in partisan captivity.

He says:
Es ist ein gutmütiger U. v. D. heute abend. Wir bitten ihn, daß wir einige Lieder singen dürfen und er das Licht etwas länger brennen läßt. Großmütig gewährt er es.
An actual translation:
A good-natured NCO is on duty this evening. We asked him for permission to sing several songs and to have the lights left on a little longer. He generously granted it.
And in the English edition of the book, this is what was published:
We asked permission to sing several songs and to have the lights left on a little longer.
The good-natured partisan had been deleted.

Ivan

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by Ivan Ž. » 02 Jan 2016 01:58

...not only that they deleted whatever they didn't like, but they added their own words here as well: Ebeling says that the elders have saved some cornbread to give it as a present to the younger. The "translator" added "from their meager ration", so that the treatment of prisoners would look worse; Ebeling wrote no such thing.

This Joseph Welsh should be credited as the co-author of the book, not the translator.

Ivan

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Re: SS-Division "Prinz Eugen" photos

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 06 Jun 2016 03:43

This is a member of SS Division Prinz Eugen with the name of Stephan Müller. What made him 'special' is because his granddaughter now becoming a very famous actress in my country, Indonesia. Her name is Sophia Latjuba.
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