Guderian quote

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Guderian quote

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 16 May 2002 09:12

The talk of the three high-ranking officers reveals that they constantly thought about politics but wanted to persuade the U.S. intelligence officers that "the German officer was content in confining his interests to his own narrow sphere" (von Schweppenburg). Von Leeb then cautions his comrades not to reveal too much information because "we will be unable to prevent them from beating us in writing the history of the war". We know by now that the German officers where highly successful in this case. More than 80% of all officers employed in the U.S. Historical Division wrote some sort of war stories or memoirs and were so able to shape history in their view. This view is unfortunately persistent until today - especially in North America. The rest of the conference of the three officers deals only with the case of how could the written questions of the U.S. interrogation officers be answered to present the Wehrmacht and especially his officers in the most favourable view. The most important part is the end of the transcription and I will quote it without shortening it.

Geyr: "Any objective observer will admit that National Socialism raised the social status of the worker, and in some respects even his standard of living as long as that was possible."
L (Leeb): "This is one of the great achievements of National Socialism. The excesses of National Socialism were in the first and final analysis due to the (warped) personality of the FUEHRER [capitals in the orig. script]."
GUD (Guderian): "The fundamental principles were fine." L: "That is true."
here is the 5 mil question. What are the fundamentals, and does that makes Guderian a Nazi.

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Richard Murphy
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Twenty Five points

Post by Richard Murphy » 16 May 2002 20:13

Hitler delivered a speech on 24th February 1920 imploring the Party (Then simply the Deutscge Arbeitpartei.) to accept the following agenda;

"The program of the German Workers Party is limited as to period. The leaders have no intention, once the aims in it have been achieved, of setting up fresh ones, merely in order to increase the discontent of the nasses artificially, and so ensure the continued existance of the party.
1) We demand the union of all Germans to form a Great Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination enjoyed by nations.
2) We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.
3) We demand land and territory (colonies) for the nourishment of our people and for settling our excess population.
4) None but members of the nation may be citizens of the state. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.
5)Anyone who is not a citizen of the state may live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to foreign laws.
6) The right of voting on the leadership and legislation is to be enjoyed by the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the country, or in the smaller localities, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of Parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capacity.
7) We demand that the state shall make it its first duty to promote the industry and livelihood of citizens of the state. If it is not possible to nourish the entire population of the state, foreign nationals (non-citizens of the state) must be excluded from the Reich.
8) All non-German immigration must be prevented...
9) All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and duties.
10) It must be the first duty of each citizen of the state to work with his mind or his body. The activities of the individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the community, and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11) Abolition of incomes unearned by work
12) In view of the enormous sacrifice of life and property demanded of a nation by every war, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore ruthless confinscation of all war gains.
13) We demand nationalization of all businesses (trusts)...
14) We demand that profits from wholesale trade be shared.
15) We demand extensive development of provision for old age.
16) We demand creation and maintinance of a healthy middle class, immediate communalization of wholesale business premises, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that extreme consideration shall be shown to all small purveyors to the state, district authorities, and smaller localities.
17) We demand land reform suitable to our national requirements....
18) We demand ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Sordid criminals against the nation, usurers, profiteers, etc. must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.
19) We demand that Roman Law, which serves the materialistic world order, shall be replaced by a legal system for all Germany.
20) With the aim of opening to every capable and industrious German the possibility of higher education and thus of obtaining advancement, the state must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education...
21) The state must see to raising the standard of health in the nation by protecting mothers and infants, prohibiting child labor, increasing bodily efficiency by obligatory gymnastics and sports laid down by law, and by extensive support of clubs engaged in the bodily development of the young.
22) We demand the abolition of a paid army and formation of a national army.
23) We demand legal warfare against concious political lying and its dissemination in the press. In order to facilitate creation of a German national press we demand:
a) that all editors of newspapers and their assistants, employing the German language, must be members of the nation;
b) that special permission from the state shall be necessary before non-German newspapers may appear. These are not necessarily printed in the German language;
c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participation financially in or influencing German newspapers...
It must be forbidden to publish papers which do not conduce to the national welfare. We demand legal prosecution of all tendancies in art and literature of a kind likely to disintergrate our life as a nation, and the suppression of institutions which militate against the requirements above-mentioned.
24) We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the state, as far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the moral feelings of the German race.
The party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within us and without us...
25) That all the foregoing may be realized we demand the creation of a strong central power of the state; unquestioned authority of the politically centralized Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and formation of chambers for classes and occupations for the purposes of carrying out the general laws promulgated by the Reich in the various states of the confederation.
The leaders of the party swear to go straight forward-if necessary to sacrifice their lives-in securing fulfillment of the foregoing points."

Phew!!!!!

Source;Encyclopedia of the Third Reich by Louis L. Snyder, Wordsworth Military Library, 1998 pages 63-64. Snyder is quoting from a State Department translation ("National Socialism" US Dept. of State publication 1864, Washington 1943 pp222-225) which explains the spellings!

Regards from the Park,

Rich

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David C. Clarke
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Nice Post Rich!

Post by David C. Clarke » 17 May 2002 01:29

Nice Post Rich--better your fingers than mine typing that nonsense in. So, between "program" and "demand" national socialism reveals itself to be nothing more than a race-based nationalism adorned with the never fulfilled trappings of a dubious and contradictory economic philosophy. Now we know why the statesmen of that era never worried about the menace of "International Nazism". "International Fascism" and "International Communism" worried them because those principles could transcend national boundaries, but not "International Nazism" which only offered the benefits of citizenship to a small ethnically-defined population. What a sham!!! What is left of national socialism after you strip away the anti-semitism?

"We demand therefore:

11) Abolition of incomes unearned by work
13) We demand nationalization of all businesses (trusts)...
14) We demand that profits from wholesale trade be shared. "

Yeah, right, I can see Krupp and the other huge industrialists and Capitalists shaking in their boots during the three seconds before they realized that this part of the program was mere rhetoric.
Best Regards, David :lol: :lol: :lol:

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David C. Clarke
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OKAY TRY THIS

Post by David C. Clarke » 17 May 2002 01:40

Hi Guys, I've edited the national socialist platform, removing anti-semetic and ethnically biased portions. This is what we have left:

"The program of the German Workers Party is limited as to period. The leaders have no intention, once the aims in it have been achieved, of setting up fresh ones, merely in order to increase the discontent of the nasses artificially, and so ensure the continued existance of the party.
1) We demand the union of all Germans to form a Great Germany on the basis of the right of self-determination enjoyed by nations.
2) We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.
3) We demand land and territory (colonies) for the nourishment of our people and for settling our excess population.
4)
5)
6) The right of voting on the leadership and legislation is to be enjoyed by the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the country, or in the smaller localities, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of Parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capacity.
7) We demand that the state shall make it its first duty to promote the industry and livelihood of citizens of the state.
8)
9) All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and duties.
10) It must be the first duty of each citizen of the state to work with his mind or his body. The activities of the individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the community, and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11) Abolition of incomes unearned by work
12) In view of the enormous sacrifice of life and property demanded of a nation by every war, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore ruthless confinscation of all war gains.
13) We demand nationalization of all businesses (trusts)...
14) We demand that profits from wholesale trade be shared.
15) We demand extensive development of provision for old age.
16) We demand creation and maintinance of a healthy middle class, immediate communalization of wholesale business premises, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that extreme consideration shall be shown to all small purveyors to the state, district authorities, and smaller localities.
17) We demand land reform suitable to our national requirements....
18) We demand ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Sordid criminals against the nation, usurers, profiteers, etc. must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.
19) We demand that Roman Law, which serves the materialistic world order, shall be replaced by a legal system for all Germany.
20) With the aim of opening to every capable and industrious German the possibility of higher education and thus of obtaining advancement, the state must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education...
21) The state must see to raising the standard of health in the nation by protecting mothers and infants, prohibiting child labor, increasing bodily efficiency by obligatory gymnastics and sports laid down by law, and by extensive support of clubs engaged in the bodily development of the young.
22) We demand the abolition of a paid army and formation of a national army.
23) We demand legal warfare against concious political lying and its dissemination in the press. In order to facilitate creation of a German national press we demand:
a)
b)
c)
It must be forbidden to publish papers which do not conduce to the national welfare. We demand legal prosecution of all tendancies in art and literature of a kind likely to disintergrate our life as a nation, and the suppression of institutions which militate against the requirements above-mentioned.
24) We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the state, as far as they are not a danger to it.
The party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession.
25) That all the foregoing may be realized we demand the creation of a strong central power of the state; unquestioned authority of the politically centralized Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and formation of chambers for classes and occupations for the purposes of carrying out the general laws promulgated by the Reich in the various states of the confederation.
The leaders of the party swear to go straight forward-if necessary to sacrifice their lives-in securing fulfillment of the foregoing points."

So, as they say in the US, would this platform have "played in Peoria"?
Would the nazis have won any elections on this alone? Cheers, D :D

Geheime Feldpolizei
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Quotations (re: U.S. Army Hist. Div., Guderian, et al)

Post by Geheime Feldpolizei » 22 May 2002 21:09

Oleg:

I am interested in finding out the source of your information concerning the supposed 80% of all officers involved in the US Army Historical Division project having written their own memoirs after the war. Also, I am interested in the source of the Guderian-Leeb, etc., exchange. Many thanks!

Paul

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Richard Murphy
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Col S.L.A. Marshall's Project

Post by Richard Murphy » 22 May 2002 22:36

Erhard Raus writes about the post-War project to gather as much infomation from the Wehrmacht commanders as possible for the Army Historical Division in his book "Panzers on the Eastern Front" (Edited by Peter Tsouras and recently published by Greenhill.). He concludes;

"By 1954, the number of Germans who had been involved in the projected numbered 730, of whom 642 were officers. The latter broke down by rank as follows:

Reichsmarschall-1
Generalfelmarschall-5
Generaloberst-21
General der Panzertruppen etc.-134
Generalleutnant-160
Generalmajor-180
Oberst-78
Oberstleutnant-34
Major-23
Hauptmann/Rittmeister-7

Although not an officer, Reichsminister Albert Speer...was also a member of this project"

He goes on to list many of the most famous names involved, many of whom did go on to write memoirs (Such as Guderian, Dönitz, Mellenthin, Skorzeny, Halder etc etc.) but "80%" is a bit high (Unless you include the actual reports (Such as Raus's.) subsequently released for publication by the US Army, which you shouldn't because they were obviously given with regard to the fact it was one officer talking to another (Albeit a former enemy.) and not a memoir with a view to profitable publication.) I would put the figure at somewhere around the 50% mark of the senior officers, but considerably less if you include all 642.

Regards from the Park,

Rich

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