Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

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CogCalgary
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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by CogCalgary » 19 Jul 2022 17:25

Joda wrote:
19 Jul 2022 11:38
Loïc wrote:
18 Jul 2022 20:01
All this german italian presence is seen as all but positively and all but a "support" for French military of Levant, rather a threat for French colonial interests from both hostiles powers having their own agendas and ambitions in the area
Major Hermann Meyers-Ricks is presented as a specialist and connoisseur of Arabs affairs and Muslim World, he came in the context of german intelligence and interests in the Middle East with the Anglo-Iraqi war, activing connections with arab nationalists under French British Empire in order to support Iraq and arabs against the colonial powers

USArchII, T77, R1432, F690, Cable 197 to Berlin and Special Command F: five hundred to a thousand al-Qawuqji men mobilized and need more weapons, discussion with Shammar leader in ar-Raqqa and Palestinian leader in Aleppo regarding anti-British uprising, will return today to Beirut, June 29, 1941, signed Meyer-Ricks, Rahn; F662, report by Meyer-Ricks on Syria, British steps and guerilla warfare by Arabs, and Vichy and Lebanon, June 22, 1941–July 4, 1941, Beirut, July 4, 1941, signed Meyer-Ricks; F691,
Sounds good many thanks ;)
The French accepted help from the Italians to defend their pipeline terminus at Tripol di Syria so it was indeed positive.Watercraft had to have been French.They wrote a report about an explosion estimated to have been 10 miles offshore.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 70153.html

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Loïc
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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by Loïc » 19 Jul 2022 21:27

Tripoli is in Lebanon, not Syria and there was no more oil coming from this pipeline after july 1940, the French Petroleum Company kept its partnership and strong financial commercial interests with the British and Americans,

until the last moment of the campaign in july 1941 the Italians want to obtain the destruction of the refinery pipeline and railways of Tripoli allowing the British to continue the war, that General Dentz will refuse
after that Germans and Italians commissions and staffs took refuge in Turkey

it is positive and a help like parasitic worms in the fruit or wolves in a sheepfold, like they occupied and exploited others french territories for the happiness and welfare of the French or sending control commissions, all that obviously as a help ...a so-called help according to germano-italians or the british having with that the goods excuses of the world to copenhagenied the French one more time
while this was basically nothing more than a foreign military presence hostile to the French sovereignty in a territory where this one was preserved until now, remaining unconquered and undefeated by Germans and even more by the Italians who aspired to replace the French in the Mandates of the Levant

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by CogCalgary » 20 Jul 2022 01:41

Was not Tripoli di Siria under a French mandate until 1943?It then became a part of Lebanon?
Why would the Palmach commandos with Major Palmer as an SOE observer bother to attempt to blow up the terminus on May 18 if it held no value?And why would the Italians send their top commando team to stop them?The pipeline could not be restarted for some reason?Not understanding why you think the Italians and Germans wished the destruction of the terminus and railways.

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by jwsleser » 20 Jul 2022 13:13

Interesting discussion

Some points of information.
On May 21, Dentz asked to suspend. But, on the 22nd, Turin announced for the next day the landing in Aleppo of 15 CR 42 aircraft and an S 81, with provision of 14,000 liters of gasoline.

This was a composite CR.42 unit from the 155ª Squadriglia with several SM.81 for logistical support. This unit was renamed Squadriglia Speciale «Irak». It arrived at Mosel on 26 May. The squadron flew raids over Mosul, Baghdad, and Habbaniya on 28-30 May from Kirkuk. The occupation of Baghdad force the abandonment of the airfield at Kirkuk on the evening of 31 May and the unit moved to Maritza. It was decided to withdraw the unit from Syria. The movement to Rhodes was delay until a SM.79 was available to guide the CR.42s over the water. The aircraft arrived on 4 June and the transfer was started that same day.
My understanding is that the Italians were also supporting the French with an unknown number of Italian commandos.
I am unaware of any arditi/assaltatori deployed to Syria. A few of those units were forming in 1941, but most were mainly formed in 1942. No active operations were conducted in 1941 beyond the those of the Regina Marina (assault boats and human torpedoes). It is possible some other Italians were present on the ground, but I have not read of any such effort. Do you have a source or any other information I can use to track down this possibility?
IIRC,an SM 81 can carry almost 40 paratroopers.
The SM.81 carried only 18 paracadutisti.

Sources.

Arena, La Regia Aeronautica vol 2 1941
Longo, I «reparti speciali» italiani nella seconda guerra mondiale.
Arena, «Folgore!»
AUSSME SM/RE memorandum Oggetto: Aerei da transporto, 23 febbraio 1942

Pista! Jeff
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

CogCalgary
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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by CogCalgary » 20 Jul 2022 14:50

jwsleser wrote:
20 Jul 2022 13:13
Interesting discussion

Some points of information.
On May 21, Dentz asked to suspend. But, on the 22nd, Turin announced for the next day the landing in Aleppo of 15 CR 42 aircraft and an S 81, with provision of 14,000 liters of gasoline.

This was a composite CR.42 unit from the 155ª Squadriglia with several SM.81 for logistical support. This unit was renamed Squadriglia Speciale «Irak». It arrived at Mosel on 26 May. The squadron flew raids over Mosul, Baghdad, and Habbaniya on 28-30 May from Kirkuk. The occupation of Baghdad force the abandonment of the airfield at Kirkuk on the evening of 31 May and the unit moved to Maritza. It was decided to withdraw the unit from Syria. The movement to Rhodes was delay until a SM.79 was available to guide the CR.42s over the water. The aircraft arrived on 4 June and the transfer was started that same day.
My understanding is that the Italians were also supporting the French with an unknown number of Italian commandos.
I am unaware of any arditi/assaltatori deployed to Syria. A few of those units were forming in 1941, but most were mainly formed in 1942. No active operations were conducted in 1941 beyond the those of the Regina Marina (assault boats and human torpedoes). It is possible some other Italians were present on the ground, but I have not read of any such effort. Do you have a source or any other information I can use to track down this possibility?
IIRC,an SM 81 can carry almost 40 paratroopers.
The SM.81 carried only 18 paracadutisti.

Sources.

Arena, La Regia Aeronautica vol 2 1941
Longo, I «reparti speciali» italiani nella seconda guerra mondiale.
Arena, «Folgore!»
AUSSME SM/RE memorandum Oggetto: Aerei da transporto, 23 febbraio 1942

Pista! Jeff
"One gun on top"."Almost 40 men"So,38,or39 men.This is a personal account face to face.Will pm you.

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by Peter89 » 22 Jul 2022 11:19

Loïc you are a bit off here. The French signed the Paris Protocols and thus the Germans had every right to be in the Levant, Tunisia or Dakar, expecting full military cooperation.

This gave the French people much easier time during the German occupation, so it was not for nothing.

Also the French government wanted to defend the Levant against the British invasion, French soldiers died doing that, thus saying that Germans were not helping to protect France' interests is not true. Darlan himself pleaded for a group of Ju 52s to airlift the troops in and sent other supplies including 127 mm naval ammunition, fuel, etc. to Thessaloniki and a few ships got through the British blockade to the Levantine coast.

In any case, the French not simply agreed to the German help, but also expected more. They (correctly) did not have illusions about the British intentions after the war.

Also Rashid Ali reopened the pipeline in April 1941 to Tripoli. But it wouldn't matter for a time as the pocket refinery in Tripoli had about a year's stock of crude in storage and the POL requirement of the whole colony was estimated at 4000 t.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by Peter89 » 22 Jul 2022 11:24

One more remark on the German efforts to undermine French rule with Arab nationalism: it was certainly ONE line of German foreign policy, but the other, equally influential line sought deeper cooperation with the French.

For example at the beginning of May the Levant colony faced a serious food shortage, only had grain stocks for about two weeks. Grobba arranged that in exchange of the weapons and supplies to Iraq, Iraq sent back food with the trains, alleviating the food crisis.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by Joda » 22 Jul 2022 13:57

This is turning to be a great interesting thread. Thanks all.
It is a little known sector of ww2, especially the German presence in Siria looks to be off from beginning of June 1941.
But documents says the contrary: a little presence but important to keep German interest in Siria and Lebanon. Vichy officially refused the German presence, but is is clear that cooperations continued with Major Bricks and Rahn during the month of June 1941.
Both a diplomatic but also military (supply) help.

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by CogCalgary » 22 Jul 2022 16:47

German plane suddenly appeared and dive bombed a perfect hit on his car as he was about to cross a bridge near
Habbaniya Iraq,May 20,1941.
Obviously the Axis were receiving intelligence from somewhere.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/david-raziel

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by Peter89 » 22 Jul 2022 19:09

Joda wrote:
22 Jul 2022 13:57
This is turning to be a great interesting thread. Thanks all.
It is a little known sector of ww2, especially the German presence in Siria looks to be off from beginning of June 1941.
But documents says the contrary: a little presence but important to keep German interest in Siria and Lebanon. Vichy officially refused the German presence, but is is clear that cooperations continued with Major Bricks and Rahn during the month of June 1941.
Both a diplomatic but also military (supply) help.
Vichy officially did not refuse German presence, maybe denied it to the outside world; but the British had air recon evidence of German military aircrafts already in May 1941. Those Ju 90s were quite unmistakeable. The ink on the Paris Protocols were still drying when German-French cooperation began.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by CogCalgary » 22 Jul 2022 21:52

Believe there are pics of painted over German markings out there iirc.

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by Peter89 » 23 Jul 2022 01:44

CogCalgary wrote:
22 Jul 2022 21:52
Believe there are pics of painted over German markings out there iirc.
Yes. The transport aircrafts had Iraqi markings. As if: 1. Iraq could buy Ju 90s, 2. the Germans would sell them, 3. the British would respect iraqi souvereignity. The Germans handled the whole affair with extreme timidity, hesitating what approach to use. Having hesitated, they've lost the opportunity.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Syrian campaign 1941 and german support, info needed please

Post by CogCalgary » 25 Jul 2022 02:00

The Palestine Post,2 June 1941
Type it in as such.
"Feed The Army And Starve The Millions"
Dentz's Reply To The Syrians Bid For Food

Hospital ship docks at Beirut.
400 fit Germans disembark and melt away.

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