KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

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GregSingh
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KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by GregSingh » 25 Oct 2021 01:58

T-315 R-2164 has some info about 19 Welle ID's organisation.

It has partial KStN's (only personel columns, no weapons or vehicles columns):

101 - 1.11.41
130 - 1.2.41
111 - 1.2.41
131e - 1.2.41
151f - 1.2.41

Infanterie Pzjager komp
(parts of
186 - 1.5.41
342 - 1.2.41
215 - 1.2.41)

401 - 1.11.41
575 - 1.2.41
403 - 1.11.41
582 - 1.11.41
433 - 1.11.41
355 - 1.2.41
702 - 1.2.41
711 - 1.2.41
743 - 1.2.41
1202 - 1.2.41
1225 - 1.2.41
1241 - 1.2.41
201 - 1.2.41
1253 - 1.2.41
1052 - 1.11.41

And these complete KStN's:

1256 - 15.2.42
711d - 16.2.42
613 - 6.2.42
188d - 15.11.41
188c - 15.11.41
575 - 1.11.41
The more you let yourself to go, the less others will let you to go.
F.Nietzsche

Max104740
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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 25 Oct 2021 07:18

Thank you for the informazioni
Max

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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 25 Oct 2021 07:21

Where did you find this roll?

Gary Kennedy
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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Gary Kennedy » 25 Oct 2021 16:34

Thanks from me as well Greg. The ones that take my eye are 130 and more particularly 111, which are sketched out here;

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4

Still a lot of detail missing in that 1941 summary though. There are other summary figures from elsewhere in the germasdocsinrussia files, seemingly for KStNs dated to Nov41, as part of plans for Sealion as I recall. I'll have to consult Max's index as I didn't keep a note of the file location.

Gary

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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 26 Oct 2021 20:10

Hi to everybody,
from a further search in my files I discovered that I already have a copy of T 315 R 2164, with documents of Infantry Division 371. I received it from Dave (KStN201 his forum nick) that found it in Calvin, but this information is not present in Sturmpanzer tool which is updated for this source unitil 2019.
I did not remember this roll because all the personal data for KStN present from frame 129 onwards are not for the Kriegsstarke but for the Stamm, that I should translate as “cadre”, about one third/one half of the full establishment used, I believe, as a core around which build new units.
Interesting is the presence for each KStN of a Gesamstarke that is for the total Kriegstarke, and that is much greater of the detail, for instance for the Infantry Battalion HQ we have a Gesamstarke of 5-16-54 whereas the total of the detailed positions is of 1-7-20.
These totals are in any case a useful information when we know nothing on some KStN, the KStN 342 of February 41 was not present in every list until this document! The only problem is that in this information are never present the “Beamte”, that were certainly present in 41 in most Battalion and Regiment HQ or HQ companies.
The KStN 111 and 130 of February 41 are certainly very interesting, and Dave found in a 20th Mountain Army folder, T 312 R 994, always from Calvin, two KStN (attached to this post) with these numbers and no date but attached to a July 41 letter. The 111 has a total manpower of 5-16-54, exactly as in T 315 R 2164, with also 2 Beamten. KStN 130 in T 312 has the presence of the music korps, in war operation used as stretcher bearer, of 1-27-10 that in T 315 is not present. Netting them we have 5-30-147 in T 315 and and 5-30-145 in T 312 (but also 2 Beamten), a little difference that may derive from some variation to the KStN after its issue.
Last thing: the germandocsinrussia file mentioned by Gary with a lot of 1941 total for KStN is 12450 A 84:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4
I hope that this is useful for you
Max
KStN 111.pdf
KStN 130.pdf
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Gary Kennedy
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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Gary Kennedy » 27 Oct 2021 13:05

Thank you (again) Max!

That version of 111 does seem to be the one that has been AWOL for a very long time. They look to be 'locally' drafted documents? Whoever did them reversed the usual use of brackets to distinguish pistols from machine pistols and also light and heavy draft horses. The figures for 111 appear to match those on the summary pages you've linked to (I didn't get chance to consult your index pages last night to see if I could find them) but there isn't a summary on the KStN to check against.

So as far as the February 1941 version of the German Infantry Regiment goes (which is a pretty important milestone in its development), the current situation appears to be;

101 - Regimental HQ - missing 01 Feb 1941 table
130 - Staff Company - 01 Feb 1941 table now found, doesn't appear to have all the variations for motorised and horse-drawn rations and baggage trains, and only shows the Bicycle Platoon.

171 - Infantry Gun Company - missing 01 Feb 1941 table
184c - Infantry Anti-tank Company - 31 Jan 1941 table is available

111 - Battalion HQ - 01 Feb 1941 table now found
131c - Rifle Company - 01 Feb 1941 table available
151c - MG Company - 01 Feb 1941 table available

201 - Light Infantry Column - I can't remember if this one is on Sturmpanzer or if it's the later version?

Still some reconstruction work required on 101 (minimal, looks to be like the 01 Nov 1941 version but with a second m/c combination instead of a light car) and 171 (probably minimal differences with the Nov 41 issue).

Gary

Max104740
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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 27 Oct 2021 16:36

Hi to everybody,
In T 312 R 994 is present also a KStN 101, the total are the same of the November version, I have not checked the detail.
I attach this file and, to complete the information, the letter to which it was attached and the other KStN sent in that communication, a rifle company 131f: I could check a 131f February 41 official file ad it is the same, the only difference is in the gepacktrosse. In the original issue the gepack has a truck, in T 312 2 two-horse wagon (and one driver added), a variation that could be issued in the first half of 1941 or a modification for a unit with occupation duty?
Now to complete the Infantry Regiment organization of February 41 we need only the IG company and the Infantry Column.
For the first the total in 12450 A 84 page 34 are very similar to the 1937 KStN and may be a proxy of the February 41 version, considering that in 12530 A 38 page 32 a third wagon is present in the Munition Staffel (I have never found a November 41 KStN 171).
We have in 12480 A 46 p 45 the original November version of KStN 201, it has three men more than the ttal in T 315 R 2164, that could be reduced analysing the description of the various position. The February 41 organization has still the ergangszug, not present in the November 41, it is probably similar to the one in 1937 KStN, but why it is not considered in T 315 totals?
I hope that this is useful for you
KStN 101.pdf
KStN 131f.pdf
Letter July 41.pdf
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Gary Kennedy
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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Gary Kennedy » 27 Oct 2021 19:52

Max, we do have something for the Inf Gun Coy, Nov 1941

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4

Seems to match with the personnel and horses/wagon total in 12450 A84, and the Lw version of 171 is available for Feb 1941 to provide another version for comparison.

Gary

Max104740
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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 27 Oct 2021 21:39

Gary,
you are right, I was looking for a KStN 171 of november 41 and I forgot the 171b of november 41, and now I doubt that the 171 of november 41 was ever issued.
Probably the february 41 version is about the same, perhaps without MP?
All the best
Max

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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 31 Oct 2021 14:42

Hi to everybody,
I gave a look to the information that are available about the organization for which the February 41 KStN is still missing.
For the Infantry gun company, KStN 171, we have the 1937 version, with 5-25-160 as manpower, no MP and LMG, 2-86-45 horses (Heavy and Light Draft horses and saddle ones), no motor vehicles, 15 wagons and 6 bicycles. The organization was made by one HQ section, 3 light IG platoons, one heavy IG platoon, a munition staffel, gefechts-tross, verpfleguns-tross and no gepack-tross. The company used a section from the Infantry column of 4 men with two two-horse wagon for transport of a part of the devices it used.
The next organization we have the KStN is the 171 b of November 41, where a Gepack-tross is present, in two version: motorised and with horse wagon. The total for the company are, for the first version, 5-29-166 men, 5 MP and no LMG, 6-86-45 horses, one LKW, 16 wagons and 9 bicycles. The second version had no trucks and added 2 privates, 6 draft horses and 3 wagons. No section was detached from the light column.
The four IG platoons did not change, apart the presence of a MP for the platoon leaders, in the HQ section was added a MP for the commander and one NCO (a futtermeister) with pistol and a saddle horse. The munition staffel added a two horse wagon with 2 men and 2 heavy draw horses whereas the verpfl. tross. lost the rechnungsfuhrer, that passed to the gepack and became a NCO. In the Gefechts-tross was added a Geratfuhrer NCO with bicycle, one cook became NCO, the field kitchen wagon became with four horse, 2 light and 2 heavy draft horses, and 2 driver from saddle instead of one from bock, the other wagon was now driven by two very heavy horses instead than two light ones.
The February 41 organization in my opinion had some but not all of these variations. We must remember that we have not a total in T 315 R 2164 to use as a target and this increases the level of uncertainty.
The first element to define the variations already present in February 41 is the document dated September 41 in 12450 A 84 from page 24 In this document we have a summary of the organization of the IG company (page 32) with a gepack-tross and an ammo staffel with three wagons. At page 33 we see that the light Infantry column has an ergangszug but with staffel only for the Battalion HQ.
Then we can consider the 171 Lw of February 41 (that is in NARA roll T 286 r 123 and not R 126), it has these items as the 171b KStN of November 41:
• 5 MP,
• a NCO futtermeister in the HQ,
• in Gefechtstrosse a geratghuhrer NCO and wagons as in 171 b of Nov 41, but no cook NCO
• Verpl and gepack as in 171b
But in the Lw KStN there is no ammo staffel, as in 37, all the other sub-units in 171 Lw of February 41 are the same of the correspondent of 171b of November 41. Only differences are the cooks that are both privates and the gepack on wagon (the version with a truck is the same) that in the November 41 version has a third two horse wagon, with its driver, and loses the schreiber’s bicycle.
The last check is the confrontation between the standard and the LW version in the 37 organization, all sub-units present in both the version are the same.
We can suppose that KStN 171 of February 41 is as the 171 Lw of the same date (in attachment to this post) with a Heavy IG platoon in place of a Light one and the addition of a Munition staffel. These two sub-units are the same of the November 41 171 b organization (in 12480 A 46 p 118).
The totals for the version with gepack motorised would be men 5-28-167, horses 6-86-45, 5 MP, 16 wagon, 1 truck and 8 bicycles. The gepack on wagon version would lose the truck substituted by two two-horse wagon, with the addition of a man and two bicycles.
The last issue is the November 41 organization, we have the 171 b but in Tessin list a Kstn 171 of November 41 is present, too. I cannot imagine in what it could differ from the 171 b version, in 12450 A 84 a 171 version of November 41 is mentioned, but its totals are the same of the 171 b, I think that it may be a typo.
I would be happy to hear some observation on this reconstruction, of course other hypothesis are possible!
In the mean-time I will work on the KStN 201 issued in February 41, this post is already too long!
I hope that this is useful for you
Max
KSTN 171 Lw Feb 41_compressed (1).pdf
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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 31 Oct 2021 22:24

Errata corrige, the september 41 document with a summary is in 12530 A 38 instead of 12450 A 84
Sorry
Max

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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by Max104740 » 01 Nov 2021 15:31

Hi to everybody,
I gave a look to the information that are available about the organization KStN 201 of February 41, trying to replicate the exercise I made for KStN 171 of the same date.
For the Light Infantry Column, KStN 201, we have the 1937 version, with 2-9-88 as manpower, no MP and LMG, 78-8 horses (Light Draft horses and saddle ones), 2 motorcycles (one with sidecar), 39 wagons and 7 bicycles. The organization was made by one HQ section, one ammo platoon, one supplementary platoon (that had four staffel, one for each of the three Infantry Battalion and one for the IG company, 2-17 men, 16-2 horses and 8 wagons), gefechts-tross, verpfleguns-tross and no gepack-tross.
The next organization we have the KStN is the 201 of February 42 (in Sturmpanzer), without the supplementary platoon.
The totals for the column are 2-10-63 men, no MP and no LMG 56-8 horses, two motorcycles (one with sidecar), 28 wagons and 7 bicycles. The second version had no trucks and added 2 privates, 6 draft horses and 3 wagons. No section was detached from the light column.
In the HQ section the Rechnungsführer becomes a NCO, the other component of the HQ do not change. The munition platoon loses two wagons (from 26 to 24) with four men and four draft horses. The verpfl. tross. does not change. In the Gefechtstross was added one NCO (a futtermeister) with pistol and a saddle horse, one cook became NCO, and a Beschlagschmiede and a driver from bock were lost, with a two horse wagon.
The first element to define the variations already present in February 41 is the document dated September 41 in 12530 A 38 from page 28. In this document we have a summary of the organization of the Light Infantry Column (page 33): one 26 wagons ammo platoon, a 2 wagons gefecht-tross and a supplementary platoon with only three staffel, only for the Battalion HQ. A total is present for manpower: 2-10-76.
Let us assume that the cook is always a private, the Rechnungsführer becomes a NCO and the futtermeister is added to the Gefechtstross. In this case to obtain the correct total the supplementary platoon of the 1937 version must lose one NCO and 11 men, the attendant to the commandant, the 4 men of the IG company staffel and two in each of the three Battalion HQ staffel (from two to one wagon for each staffel).
In this way the totals of the column are: men 2-10-76, horse 68-8, 34 wagons, 2 motorcycles (one with sidecar) and 7 bicycles. These numbers are the same in 12450 A 84 p 35 for the KStN standing in November 41, and for the KStN 201 this was the February 41 version.
The KStN 201 of February 41 was the same of the 1937 version for the Munitions- zug and the Verpfl.Tross, in the HQ troop the Rechnungsführer becomes a NCO (as in February 42 version) and a futtermeister is added to the Gefechtstross. Radically different the Ergänzungs- zug that is formed by a NCO (stellung-gruppe G) with a rifle and a saddle horse and three troops, each with a Gerätverwalter, (zugl.Wg.Begl.) and a Fahrer vom Bock, both with rifle, and a two-horse wagon.
The last check is the confrontation with the only 201 organization we have the February 41 version: the Luftlande organization (in Sturmpanzer site).
It has a lot of differences from our but gives some interesting information: in the Erdstaffel the Ergänzungs- zug is exactly as I have supposed, in the Gefechtstross the only difference is the sanitary NCO, that passes to the Fliegende Staffel and in the HQ troop of the Erdstaffel the Rechnungsführer becomes a NCO.
The only difference is in the Gefechtstross where the Fahnenschmiedwagen (Hf.1/13) is driven by two heavy horses, instead of light ones, so the total horses of the column would be 2-66-8.
In T 315 R 2164 at page 163 the KStN 201 of February 41 is shown with a total manpower of 2-10-60, I cannot explain this only as an error, I have two sources with different numbers, both at 2-10-76
I would be happy to hear some observation on this reconstruction, of course other hypothesis are possible!
I hope that this is useful for you
Max

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Re: KStN's for 19 Welle ID's

Post by kfbr392 » 09 Nov 2021 08:25

Max, thank you again for sharing from your extensive KStN database.

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