7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

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Kelvin
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7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Kelvin » 09 Mar 2020 10:02

In accordance with Nigel Askey, 7 and 20. Panzer-Division had actual number of 95 x Panhard 178 armored cars in each division, from this book, their Aufklärungs-Abteilung had two armored car companies each with 27 x Panhard , but each division had 41 x Panhard left, how are they deployed ? Thank

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Алексей
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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Алексей » 10 Mar 2020 18:52

Here's Kriegsgliederung's of these divisions:
04224_501.jpg
04302_355.jpg
20 PzDiv_8.05.41_f194dd019d05c9467afd73441af989a3d1f9c8ea.jpg
7 PzDiv_8.05.41_a25f4263cef8371469164904b050aecd599717b0.jpg
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Kelvin
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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Kelvin » 11 Mar 2020 13:12

Алексей wrote:
10 Mar 2020 18:52
Here's Kriegsgliederung's of these divisions:04224_501.jpg04302_355.jpg20 PzDiv_8.05.41_f194dd019d05c9467afd73441af989a3d1f9c8ea.jpg7 PzDiv_8.05.41_a25f4263cef8371469164904b050aecd599717b0.jpg
Hello, thank for your attachment and not same as Nigel Askey' s book data. Which one is correct ?

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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 11 Mar 2020 19:33

Kelvin, think about that last question. Which do you think is correct, the original German document or the contemporary English language book ?
Alan

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donwhite
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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by donwhite » 11 Mar 2020 23:01

I think it is logical to consider the possibility of variations between what is authorised on paper in a Kriegsgliederung and what a unit actually held as documented by Panzerlage (a different paper!). Does Askey footnote his source?

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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by GregSingh » 12 Mar 2020 00:40

Yes, authorized and actual numbers were usually quite different. Time frame is also important.

According to NARA T315 R406 - 0645, 7.Pz had only 64 (54+10) Panhard's at the start of the campaign, in four categories: Waffen-Wg., Funk-Wg., Funkstelle and Befehlswg.
You can get pretty damn far in life by just saying what you're going to do and then doing it.

Kelvin
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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Kelvin » 12 Mar 2020 07:49

GregSingh wrote:
12 Mar 2020 00:40
Yes, authorized and actual numbers were usually quite different. Time frame is also important.

According to NARA T315 R406 - 0645, 7.Pz had only 64 (54+10) Panhard's at the start of the campaign, in four categories: Waffen-Wg., Funk-Wg., Funkstelle and Befehlswg.
Hello, GregSingh, Nigel Askey book Barbarossa mentions 7 and 20. Pz divisoins had authorized TOE for 54 x Panhard 178 but actual Equipment table on 22 June 1941, he gave 95 x Panhard for each division, but he Fails to tell us how to distribute those 95 AFV, only says 54 in Pz.A.A.37 and 92 each.

Hi, Don, his reference mostly from Leo Niehorster book but as I know, Leo book is for authorized TOE, thank

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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Juha » 17 Sep 2022 14:45

One cynical observation, 95 + 95 = 190 which is the figure given in several books as the number of Panhard 178 a/cs participating Operation Barbarossa. So I’m a bit sceptical to Askey’s info. But then the question is 190 – 2 * 64 = 62, where were the other 62 Panhard 178s employed? Were there any in the Aufkl.Abt:en(mot.) of Inf.Div:en(mot.), maybe with 14., it was under XXXIX. Armee Korps (mot) control on 22 June 1941, as 7. and 20. Panzer Divisions which had Panhards? 14. was equipped with French vehicles but I have not seen any info that the 10 armoured cars of its Aufkl.Abt.(mot.) had been French made.
Maybe with some SS unit/formation? Some of them utilized war-booty equipment.
Or with some rear area security units/formations?

Any info?

TIA
Juha

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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 20 Sep 2022 15:24

Juha, from watching Wochenschau film of Barbarossa I can say that there were some with their turrets removed and used by at least one Infantry Division's Recce unit so perhaps they were scattered around various units ?
Alan

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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Juha » 20 Sep 2022 17:46

Alan, thanks a lot for the info!

In Purnell's History of the World Wars Special, German Fighting Vehicles 1939-1945 by Chamberlain, Ellis and Batchelor (1975) there is a photo on a P 204(f) with German police badge painted on the turret side and the caption says that it was taken part in an anti-partisan action in Russia in 1941 but of course the year might be wrong.

I have also seen a photo on a P 204(f) with a SS register number plate but without any info on place or date.

Juha

Ps one potential formation covering both pictures is 1. SS-Brigade RFSS, it was equipped with Frech and Czech weapons and French motor vehicles and according to its TOE had 4 cannon armed armoured cars.

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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by DirkAH » 20 Sep 2022 20:08

Concering the numbers of Panhards with 7. and 20. Pz.Div. during Barbarossa the precise numbers are difficult to establish. 7. Pz.Div. seems to have had 64 on 22.6.41 as the Div. reported 30 remaining (19 operational) and 34 total losses until 21st July 1941. A further 64 seemingly were deliverd until October 1941. 20. Pz.Div. had most likely 52 on 22.6.41 as on 9th August 1941 the Div. reported 6 operational, 33 in repair (=39) with 17 total losses and 4 new ones delivered up to that point. It seems the Div. also received 17 additional new Panhards shortly afterwards

The police Panhards were most likely from Polizei-Pz.Kp. 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11, as all of them used Panhards in 1942/44. As a bit of a curiosity a single one was used as a recording vehicle for war correspondents with Das Reich in early 1943.
As a side note 20. Pz.Div.'s Panhards can be seen in "Mit der Kamera an der Osfront", the private recordings of a member of the Div. in 1940/41 (from 17:09): https://youtu.be/xk6f2s9nrl8?t=1029
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Re: 7. and 20. Panzer divisions' Panhard 178

Post by Juha » 21 Sep 2022 13:44

Hello Dirk, thank you very much! Excellent information!
I had thought that some of the 190 Panhards might be replenishment vehicles, but I would never have guessed that such a large proportion had been received as replenishment. I don't remember ever seeing how much the Barbarossa troops received as a replenishment of German-made armored cars, but as far as the tanks are concerned, the replenishments were only a fraction of the losses.

Thankfully
Juha

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