Squad level firepower comparisons

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 12 Dec 2020 20:50

I think the 2in mortar was not part of the Infantry section, but located at platoon HQ, but I guess that all three men in the Mortar section, had rifles.
Knowing the British Army at this time, I would guess that the Bren Gunner had no pistol, but just a Bren and his loader had a rifle.

Ian

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 12 Dec 2020 22:43

For the Paras the 2 inch man was part of the Rifle Squad.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 13 Dec 2020 16:22

Brady wrote:
11 Dec 2020 20:59
Gary Kennedy wrote:
11 Dec 2020 20:19
The February 1942 WE table does include the 'pistol, .45-inch, automatic' on the table of weapons and ammunition. It doesn't unfortunately specify the individuals to be so armed, however with two pistols, two SMGs and six rifles per Rifle Section, the No.1 and 2 of the Bren gun would seem the most likely candidates.
The No.2 would of had a Rifle as well presumably ?

Makes me curious as to why he had it, I thought the 2 inch man had a pistole ?
I think I probably suggested the man with the 2-inch mortar as armed with a pistol myself a while back. However, in the original Sep41 Para Bn WE the Section is listed with two pistols (.38 rather than .45), two machine carbines (ie SMGs) and six rifles, which was before the addition of the airborne 2-in mortar to the Section. The only two personnel who would make sense as being armed with pistols on the 1941 org I would have to say are the two LMG numbers. Small arms issue is not given in the 1944-45 Para Bn WEs so I can't pretend to know the same held true then. The Canadian Para Bn WEs of 1944 have the Section with one pistol, one LMG, two SMGs and seven rifles (one a sniper version), and a 2-in mortar. With nothing to compare against I don't know if that was a reflection of British practice (1 Cdn Para Bn was an integral part of British 6th Abn Div) or of Canadian.

Gary

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 13 Dec 2020 21:00

Oh, yes it was, I thought you was talking about Infantry, but I should have read your post better.

https://www.quartermastersection.com/br ... /2472/Para

Ian

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 14 Dec 2020 21:18

Not, to go even deeper... :)

But I am curious on how the British 'Armored" Infantry were equipped as well, and I can find nothing in my books mentioning them specifically.

I am curious if they employed the same tactics as there American counterparts, that is Dismount to fight.

And How the American Armored Infantry squads were structured, my assumption is they were the same as the regular rife squads, but... ?

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 15 Dec 2020 16:11

Edit- I did find this, for the British and Americans, but it seams odd, for one that the British sections are so small, especially when compared to the Americans, and that they used the White Scout car's in part, and them not using MG's Suggests they did not intend at all to fight from the Vehicles.

Then comparing the British to Americans who had a Dozen in the halftracks, with basically each one with a Bazooka in it seams over the top ?

I guess I am looking for a reality Check on that sights values.

https://www.battleorder.org/uk-motorco-wwii

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 15 Dec 2020 18:57

The British Motor Battalion was largely reliant on the 15-cwt truck (3/4-ton) for the majority of the war years, which helped set the Motor Section as eight strong. When the first Motor Bns appeared in 1938 the standard Rifle Section was eight men anyway, and could be easily carried in a 15-cwt for prolonged movement. The switch to the White Scout Car (M3A1) began in Home Forces in late 1943, however by the time 21AG had crossed the Channel the Motor Bns were equipped with halftracks. Machine guns were not standard armament for each halftrack, however we know some units acquired them (8 Rifle Brigade for example), but I don't know if that can be confirmed for all the five British Motor Bns in 21AG.

US Armored Infantry, I've put everything I could find for them on bayonetstrength. They are a bit odd as there were five Squads in the Platoon, and only two of them 'proper' Rifle Squads, the third having to include Platoon HQs, and the remaining two being fire support (M1919s and 60-mm mortars respectively). The two Rifle Squads were just riflemen, no BARs, excepting the driver with an SMG. When the Bazooka was introduced it became a standard weapon for carriage on the halftrack, so there were an almighty number in a Bn (over 70).

Gary

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Sheldrake » 15 Dec 2020 20:43

Brady wrote:
15 Dec 2020 16:11
Edit- I did find this, for the British and Americans, but it seams odd, for one that the British sections are so small, especially when compared to the Americans, and that they used the White Scout car's in part, and them not using MG's Suggests they did not intend at all to fight from the Vehicles.

Then comparing the British to Americans who had a Dozen in the halftracks, with basically each one with a Bazooka in it seams over the top ?

I guess I am looking for a reality Check on that sights values.

https://www.battleorder.org/uk-motorco-wwii
Don't forget that the British had a lot of Bren Gun Carriers, which maybe where the LMG are..

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 17 Dec 2020 22:11

On Topic, Off Topic, Related...

StG 44 Allocations East Vs West, and the SLR role.

I know initially many of the StG 44's were sent East, but by D day there must of been some in Units in Normandy ?

Another Question is it would seam that the StG 44 would fit in the 'slot" of the SLR in German Rifle Squads, and not as SL's weapon as I think is often assumed ?

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by akdavis » 21 Dec 2020 02:11

Brady wrote:
17 Dec 2020 22:11
On Topic, Off Topic, Related...

StG 44 Allocations East Vs West, and the SLR role.

I know initially many of the StG 44's were sent East, but by D day there must of been some in Units in Normandy ?
Very few I think, at least at the time of the invasion. The only positive reference I have found to any sizable number is an entry in the AOK 7 supply KTB for May 7, 1944 that notes 275. I.D. received 399 M.P. 43 (T-311 R-1571 frame 300). This is followed on June 27, 1944 by an entry noting that the 275. I.D. Kampgruppe is short on ammunition for M.P. 43 and 30,000 rounds will be delivered (frame 571).

However, 275. ID also reveals the difficulty in tracking these rifles. On May 1, the reverse side of the division's Kriegsgliederung (T-314 R-746 frame 464) shows 258 "M.P." on hand and 400 M.P. 43/1 "on the way." The June 1 Kriegsgliederung (T-314 R-747 frame 16) no longer shows the 400 M.P. 43/1 "on the way" but now shows a total of 657 "M.P." on hand. That total of course perfectly tracks with the AOK 7 supply KTB number of 399 M.P. 43 delivered.
Another Question is it would seam that the StG 44 would fit in the 'slot" of the SLR in German Rifle Squads, and not as SL's weapon as I think is often assumed ?
The earliest "official" establishment calling for MP43s/MP44s (that I've seen) was K.St.N.131 Sp. (8.7.1944) Schützenkompanie einer Sperrdivision, and this called for the 20x rifles in one platoon per company to be replaced with MP44s, leaving the SL's MPi in place.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131sp8jul44.htm

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 21 Dec 2020 19:43

Thanks, I did some digging, and There is evidence, it would seam, of The German troops on the Chanel islands having (some) the StG 44, priour to D-day.

And other photographic evidence of German troops in the west being equipped with them in mid 44, at least a few...

But these references are, or can be, misleading as photographic evidence of lacks provenance.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 21 Dec 2020 19:49

British Glider Piolet's-

I have read a lot of material on the Airborne operation in OMG and in general for WW2, but one thing I am a bit confused on it, just Who owned teh Glider Piolets, and how they were equipped and organized.

I had thought they were not part of the British Airborne Division's, but rather RAF. And after landing acted as a "replacement pool" for the British, but I often see where they were to organized and acted as unit unto themselves ?

Another ? of course is how were they equipped, I see some mention of them having the odd Carbine, and others where they Have Rifles , and even Brens...

........................

Of course this all makes me wonder the same thing for the Germans, and Americans.

I could be, mentality "mashing up" various references and drawing the wrong conclusions.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 21 Dec 2020 20:43

The Glider Pilot Regiment was Army, so soldiers first. From 1944 they were organised into two wings, each commanding from two to six Squadrons, and each Squadron from two to six Flights. The Dec 1943 WE for a Flight was based around three Sections, each of 14 pilots, one an officer and the balance Serjeants or Staff-serjeants.

They were specialists and difficult to replace, so they did not act as a reserve pool after landing. The idea was for them to form up quickly and operate as a cohesive unit until withdrawn. They were trained to fight as well as fly and did serve as anti-tank numbers and riflemen in many instances, sometimes temporarily replacing casualties in the subunits they brought in.

A great many GPR personnel were lost through Arnhem, but 6th Airborne Division remained extremely active and needed glider pilots for its Air Landing units. In early 1945 RAF pilots were drafted in and trained as glider pilots, but not in the full 'total soldier' manner as the GPR had been throughout. They did though receive elementary training in infantry duties. At the Rhine crossing over half the glider pilots were RAF men (481 to 399 Army).

Personal weapons did vary, I couldn't find an 'official' line on the matter. Pistols, Stens and rifles could all be found - I seem to recall an ambitious individual took a Bren gun...

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 21 Dec 2020 21:07

Thanks Gary,


So no mention of the 'Carbine", just the Typical Airborne kit ?

akdavis
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by akdavis » 21 Dec 2020 21:52

Brady wrote:
21 Dec 2020 19:43
Thanks, I did some digging, and There is evidence, it would seam, of The German troops on the Chanel islands having (some) the StG 44, priour to D-day.
319. I.D. on the Channel Islands, correct? Their kriegsgliederung from May 1, 1944 only shows 1008 "M.Pi.". The number of M.Pi. went up from 821 to 1007 between Feb.1 and Mar. 1.

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