Squad level firepower comparisons

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Art
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Art » 27 Jul 2020 11:30

Brady wrote:
25 Jul 2020 19:49
By 1941 the basic infantry unit was an 11-man squad, containing a squad leader, a two-man LMG team, two submachine-gunners and six riflemen. The squad leader, LMG assistant and the riflemen were each armed with the M1890/30 Mosin-Nagant rifle, or – supplies permitting – the SVT-40 semi-automatic rifle; the LMG gunner carried a DP-28 light machine gun, and the submachine-gunners carried PPD-38/40s. Though the weaponry listed hardly seems excessive, the severe shortages afflicting the RKKA through the late 1930s and early 1940s meant that only the prospect of combat would lead to most squads getting their full complement of weapons, not to mention ammunition.
According to the 04/401 establishment of the rifle regiment (April 1941):
11-men rifle squad with 1 light machine-gune (DP-27), 8 semi-automatic rifles, and 2 SMGs. What were alleged shortages is a mystery to me. By June 1941 there were more than enough self-loaded and bolt-action rifles for full mobilization, SMGs were the only weapon in short supply.

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Eugen Pinak » 27 Jul 2020 21:47

Brady wrote:
26 Jul 2020 16:08
All :)

I am interested to see how they evolved over the First year of the war, From June till the Kalinin Front In October of 41, it's interesting to think that in that short window of time, and under the circumstance, that there were , as you say 4 changes in there organization for the typical rifle Squad ?
Only 3 changes from June 1941.

Where weapons not mentioned - it means automatic rifle.

1) April 1941 - Shtat 04/401
Rifle platoon = HQ, 4 rifle squads, 1 mortar squad
HQ = Platoon commander (officer)-SMG, Platoon Sergeant (NCO)-carbine, Signalman-runner.
Rifle squad (each) = Commander (NCO)-automatic rifle, 2 LMG crew-1 pistol, 1 automatic rifle > 1 LMG, 8 riflemen-2 SMG, 6 automatic rifle.
Mortar squad = Commander (NCO)-carbine, 3 Mortarmen-1 pistol, 2 carbines > 1 50-mm mortar. + 1st Mortar squad of each company carried all the company mortars, so it had extra: 1 carriage guide-rifle with 1 mortar cart and 1 horse.
Note: of all automatic rifles 2 had sniper scopes.

2) July 1941 - Shtat 04/601
Rifle platoon = HQ, 4 rifle squads, 1 mortar squad (only in 1 & 2 platoons)
HQ = Platoon commander (officer)-pistol, Platoon Sergeant (NCO)-carbine, Signalman-runner.
Rifle squad (1 & 3) = Commander (NCO)-automatic rifle, 2 LMG crew-1 unarmed, 1 automatic rifle > 1 LMG, 8 riflemen.
Rifle squad (2 & 4) = Commander (NCO)-automatic rifle, 2 LMG crew-1 SMG(?), 1 automatic rifle > no LMG, 8 riflemen.
Mortar squad (only in 1 & 2 platoons) = Commander (NCO)-carbine, 3 Mortarmen-1 pistol, 2 carbines > 1 50-mm mortar. + 1st Mortar squad of each company carried all the company mortars, so it had extra: 1 carriage guide-rifle with 1 mortar cart and 1 horse.
Note: of all automatic rifles 2 had sniper scopes.

3) December 1941 - Shtat 04/751
Rifle platoon = HQ, 4 rifle squads. Mortars were consolidated in regimental mortar battalion.
HQ = Platoon commander (officer)-pistol, Platoon Sergeant (NCO), Signalman-runner.
Rifle squad (three) = Commander (NCO)-automatic rifle, 2 LMG crew: 1 Deputy commander (NCO)-unarmed, 1 automatic rifle > 1 LMG, 8 riflemen.
Rifle squad (one) = Commander (NCO)-automatic rifle, 1 Deputy commander (NCO)-SMG(?), 9 riflemen-of them 2 with SMG.
Note: of all automatic rifles 2 had sniper scopes.

Any way, Gary's http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/ covers this better, than can I.

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 28 Jul 2020 00:20

What's interesting is how His work differs from what's listed above, and that's not a comment on eithers work, I can see its a complex subject with varying sources:

I see Gary's work would suggest the "Ideal" allocation, and the Above reference I posted suggests a relative shortage of SVT's.

What's also interesting is the Difference in allocation of SMG's.

Image

This is more aligned with the original post, and the TOE that would of been in effect late in 41 still I suppose, at least officially:

Image

Thanks, for the Help, it does seam there is some 'grey" area on just what they might have at any given place and time, and that's I suppose to be expected.

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Eugen Pinak » 28 Jul 2020 12:13

Brady wrote:
28 Jul 2020 00:20
I see Gary's work would suggest the "Ideal" allocation, and the Above reference I posted suggests a relative shortage of SVT's.

What's also interesting is the Difference in allocation of SMG's.
The problem is, both Shtats show not strength of each squad, but overall strength of 4 squads. So SMG allocation are just my and Garry's guesses. And, of course, Shtat by definition presents an ideal picture of unit organization. Actual composition of the Soviet rifle squad requires a work of its own.

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 28 Jul 2020 15:42

How are you guys on Hungarian squads?

I did some work on them around ten years ago and wonder if they have any errors, if you want I can post one up here and we can go through it together.

Ian

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 29 Jul 2020 15:40

PPSh, On a related topic, I have conflicting sources on the PPSh production "start" some say November 41 (many actually), and I have one that says that:

"plant No.367 started manufacturing them as early as March 1941 after transient period needed to retool the equipment from PPD-40 production"

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 31 Jul 2020 20:20

Here is what I currently have for a Hungarian Rifle/LMG section.

RIFLE/LMG SECTION:
LMG SQUAD:
Corporal/Squad Leader (35M 8mm Rifle)
Pvt/Gunner (37M 9mm Pistol)
Pvt/Assistant Gunner (35M 8mm Rifle)
2 x Pvts/Ammunition Carriers (35M 8mm Rifles
31M 8mm Light Machine Gun
RIFLE SQUAD:
Lance Corporal/Squad Leader (35M 8mm Rifle)
5 x Pvt/Riflemen (35M 8mm Rifles)

Ian

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 06 Dec 2020 17:58

Did, we, Ever nail down, a Panzergriender Rifle Squads kit allotment ?

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 06 Dec 2020 19:19

There were a lot of variations, depending on whether motorised or armoured, and sometimes bicycle, and by the time period. Can you narrow it down a bit as there's like 260+ posts!

Gary

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 07 Dec 2020 15:58

Circa late 44

The 9th and 10th SS

Part of the confusion I think come from the 251's, it's my understanding that the Rifle Squads used there MG's from the second mount at the rear of halftrack, and the One on the front would stay with the Vehicle, Thus each PG Squad would have one MG 34/42 to use if dismounted.

It Does not "need" to be that specific though, any help is always apricated.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 07 Dec 2020 18:52

The authorised strength from late 1943 for a halftrack mounted (SdKfz 251) Panzer Grenadier Squad was ten men, with two dismounted LMGs and one more LMG on the halftrack.

NCO leader - MP40
NCO asst leader - rifle
2 LMG numbers - pistol and LMG each
2 asst LMG number - pistol
2 riflemen - rifle
Driver - rifle
Asst driver - rifle
SdKfz 251 - 1 LMG and 1 MP40

During 1944 the driver and asst driver each lost their rifle, the driver using the on board MP40 if required and the asst driver having a pistol. The asst driver was also responsible for the vehicle mounted LMG. Also the asst leader went from rank Group G to M.

Gary

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 07 Dec 2020 20:52

Interesting the assistant LMG gunner had a pistole not a rifle.

Did they have Grenade Discharges (1?,2?) for the Rifles ?

Thank you


Edit- I also keep seeing references for German Squads having two SMG's.

But I was under the Impression this was unusual. In The Lions of Caratain, on FJG R6, they describe who they "managed" to get two per squad, as if it was a big deal.

And Above for the PG's we see two per squad.

This is Interesting:

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

Image

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 11 Dec 2020 14:33

British para use of the M1911, Was this an "official" thing ?

I came across a reference lately that in (From) February 44-49 the Bren Gunners were Issued with a M1911?

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 11 Dec 2020 20:19

The February 1942 WE table does include the 'pistol, .45-inch, automatic' on the table of weapons and ammunition. It doesn't unfortunately specify the individuals to be so armed, however with two pistols, two SMGs and six rifles per Rifle Section, the No.1 and 2 of the Bren gun would seem the most likely candidates.

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 11 Dec 2020 20:59

Gary Kennedy wrote:
11 Dec 2020 20:19
The February 1942 WE table does include the 'pistol, .45-inch, automatic' on the table of weapons and ammunition. It doesn't unfortunately specify the individuals to be so armed, however with two pistols, two SMGs and six rifles per Rifle Section, the No.1 and 2 of the Bren gun would seem the most likely candidates.
The No.2 would of had a Rifle as well presumably ?

Makes me curious as to why he had it, I thought the 2 inch man had a pistole ?

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