Squad level firepower comparisons

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 18 May 2020 19:56

Hi gebhk, I cannot find any more on the plotoe esploratori either. Was this unit kept a battalion or company level?

I suppose it makes sense to ditch the LMGs and replace them with SMGs, I believe that the US Army may have done something similar and issued six Thompsons at Company HQ for patrol use as that is the only place you see them in the TO/E.

Ian

gebhk
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by gebhk » 18 May 2020 23:32

The plotone esploratori was an independent battalion platoon.

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 19 May 2020 15:05

Thank you, it is just that many sites don't list this unit.

Ian

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Eugen Pinak » 20 May 2020 10:31

yantaylor wrote:
17 May 2020 19:49
This "Google-translate" Italian looks really ridiculous.

Well I am trying my best Eugen, I am English and speak no Italian at all.
What level would you find the recon platoon, I would like to build one up if I can.

Ian
I am sure, that even Italians won't mind you using good English instead of bad Italian.

As for recon platoon - it was a battalion level unit.
You can wee its organization below:
Image

Image

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 20 May 2020 10:46

Thanks Eugen, wow it is larger than a platoon, more like a battalion like you said.

Were all these platoons on foot or did they have any vehicles.
I can make out a few words, but the majority escape me, is there anymore to this document, weapons perhaps?

Great work Eugen, thanks again.
Regards
Ian

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Eugen Pinak » 20 May 2020 13:46

yantaylor wrote:
20 May 2020 10:46
Thanks Eugen, wow it is larger than a platoon, more like a battalion like you said.

Were all these platoons on foot or did they have any vehicles.
I can make out a few words, but the majority escape me, is there anymore to this document, weapons perhaps?
HQ - 1 officer, 1 private (orderly-messenger) and 3 squads, each 1 NCO, 12 privates (1 - superior private). It had no vehicles.
I have no more information about this platoon besides the fact it was armed with SMG.

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 20 May 2020 15:32

Hi Eugen, all armed with SMGs or a mix of Modello 34 pistols, Beretta M38 SMGs and either Carcano M91 or M38 rifles?

Ian

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Eugen Pinak » 20 May 2020 15:45

All I remember - all armed with SMG. Though maybe platoon commander was armed with pistol?

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 20 May 2020 16:36

Eugen Pinak wrote:
20 May 2020 15:45
All I remember - all armed with SMG. Though maybe platoon commander was armed with pistol?
Cirica ?

Was this a 1940 Weapons allotment ?

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 20 May 2020 18:28

I've not seen that schematic for the Scout Platoon before Eugen, thanks for posting it.

Brady, I'm assuming that's from the 'standard' Italian Inf Bn, circa 1940-43, and not modified for desert warfare.

In late 1944 when the Italian Combat Groups were formed (for service with the Western allies in Italy and against the German and RSI forces) the British Army issued their governing organisation tables. Unfortunately there is almost literally nothing in them on weapons issue, including for LMGs, mortars and towed guns. The Infantry Battalion for an Italian Combat Group (Sep44) was a strange cross of the old Italian Inf Bn with the horse-drawn transport replaced by motor vehicles. It included a Scouts Platoon, with an officer, three Sergeants, nine Corporals and 30 Privates, the latter including three drivers, 21 riflemen and nine 'saboteurs'. The Scouts Platoon also had three solo motorcycles and three 'recce cars', which came courtesy of the British; as Eugen says the original Italian Army Scout Platoon was entirely on foot. The Sep44 WE offers no clue on individual weapons sadly.

Gary

Dili
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Dili » 20 May 2020 21:09

I don't think that SMG is correct. It certainly wasn't in 1940.

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Eugen Pinak » 20 May 2020 21:23

Dili wrote:
20 May 2020 21:09
I don't think that SMG is correct. It certainly wasn't in 1940.
I'm afraid, you are correct. All the data on MAB38 I've managed to find, says it was NOT issued to ordinary infantrymen before 1943. So either I misread the source, or the source was in error.

Gary - you are correct, that's standard 1938-pattern infantry battalion as described in the Infantry manual of 1939.

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 25 Jul 2020 19:49

"Red Army Squad, full strength version, 1943-45

Sergeant (rifle, later SMG), Junior Sergeant (LMG), assistant (Rifle), 6 riflemen (5 rifles and 1 SMG).

* There were two versions of Rifle Squad in the Rifle Platoon, the other was as above but deleted two riflemen and added a second LMG team. Also during 1943 the third Platoon in each Rifle Company was to exchange its rifles for SMGs. In theory all the rifles were supposed to be semi-automatic models, but it's generally accepted that bolt action rifles predominated
."

Above Posted by Gary

Do we have any idea what they looked like in 41 ?

.................................................................

I have this, but it's always good to get a second opinion, err Reference for an Osprey Book:

By 1941 the basic infantry unit was an 11-man squad, containing a squad leader, a two-man LMG team, two submachine-gunners and six riflemen. The squad leader, LMG assistant and the riflemen were each armed with the M1890/30 Mosin-Nagant rifle, or – supplies permitting – the SVT-40 semi-automatic rifle; the LMG gunner carried a DP-28 light machine gun, and the submachine-gunners carried PPD-38/40s. Though the weaponry listed hardly seems excessive, the severe shortages afflicting the RKKA through the late 1930s and early 1940s meant that only the prospect of combat would lead to most squads getting their full complement of weapons, not to mention ammunition. The Mosin-Nagant, though dependable and popular, was too long and cumbersome, especially when the bayonet was fitted (as in most cases it permanently was), and the SVT-40 had a range of issues that made it a far from popular choice with the troops. The submachine guns were serviceable, if rather too complex to produce in the required quantities, but the DP-28 was a solid enough LMG.

Campbell, David. German Infantryman vs Soviet Rifleman (Combat) . Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Eugen Pinak
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Eugen Pinak » 26 Jul 2020 13:03

Brady wrote:
25 Jul 2020 19:49
"Red Army Squad, full strength version, 1943-45

Sergeant (rifle, later SMG), Junior Sergeant (LMG), assistant (Rifle), 6 riflemen (5 rifles and 1 SMG).

* There were two versions of Rifle Squad in the Rifle Platoon, the other was as above but deleted two riflemen and added a second LMG team. Also during 1943 the third Platoon in each Rifle Company was to exchange its rifles for SMGs. In theory all the rifles were supposed to be semi-automatic models, but it's generally accepted that bolt action rifles predominated
."

Above Posted by Gary

Do we have any idea what they looked like in 41 ?
There were 4 changes in squad/platoon organization of the Red Army rifle units in 1941. Which ones are you looking for?

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 26 Jul 2020 16:08

Eugen Pinak wrote:
26 Jul 2020 13:03
Brady wrote:
25 Jul 2020 19:49
"Red Army Squad, full strength version, 1943-45

Sergeant (rifle, later SMG), Junior Sergeant (LMG), assistant (Rifle), 6 riflemen (5 rifles and 1 SMG).

* There were two versions of Rifle Squad in the Rifle Platoon, the other was as above but deleted two riflemen and added a second LMG team. Also during 1943 the third Platoon in each Rifle Company was to exchange its rifles for SMGs. In theory all the rifles were supposed to be semi-automatic models, but it's generally accepted that bolt action rifles predominated
."

Above Posted by Gary

Do we have any idea what they looked like in 41 ?
There were 4 changes in squad/platoon organization of the Red Army rifle units in 1941. Which ones are you looking for?
All :)

I am interested to see how they evolved over the First year of the war, From June till the Kalinin Front In October of 41, it's interesting to think that in that short window of time, and under the circumstance, that there were , as you say 4 changes in there organization for the typical rifle Squad ?

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