12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcements

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12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcements

Post by army group south » 28 Apr 2013 21:43

Hi there,

Looking for information about the rest, refit and re-inforcement of the 12. SS-Pz.-Division "Hitlerjugend" in September 1944.
Does anyone know where I can get a list of which units were included in the refit, and where this took place?

cheers,

thanks S.


"When you look into the Abyss, the Abyss also looks into you" -Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by RandJS » 11 May 2013 02:18

Hi,
Hubert Meyer's book "The History of the 12 SS Panzerdivision Hitlerjugend" has all of the details of the refit in September, 1944. Basically the whole division was rebuilt, some 9,000 men and equipment of all types.
Regards,
Rand

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by army group south » 11 May 2013 18:13

Thanks for the reply Rand. I have heard of this book...is that volume one or two, that mentions the refitt of Sept. '44?

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by Ste » 11 May 2013 18:25

Volume 2.I think that they received about 2000 men from the Kriegsmarine and from the Luftwaffe.

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by army group south » 11 May 2013 21:32

I am looking for 300 men from the Volksdeutsche cavalry regiment of the waffen ss that went to the 12. SS-Pz "Hitlerjugend" as "Nachersatz" in September 1944.

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by RandJS » 12 May 2013 11:19

I have the hard cover copy of the book, which does mention the 2,000+ LW and KM replacements, which the division tried to exchange NCO's for other younger, NCO's from the administration service. Unfortunately, the book does not mention the cavalry replacements.

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by andernach » 13 May 2013 22:17

Hello,
I have heard and read about re-inforcements coming from several sources/units:
Aug - sep 1944:
- mainly the common replacement units for specialists, such as SS-Flak Ausb.u.ErsRgt. Some of them were "former members" of the division, healt from their wounds.
- Feldersatzbataillon LSSAH.
- the so called "Göring-Spende", former members of the Luftwaffe.
- former members of the Kriegsmarine, mainly specialist such as artillerymen from the "Küstenartillerie".
- SS-Kampfmarschverband "Kurmark".
- Kampfgruppe Urabl (former SS-FeldErsBtl 12).
- SS-PzGrenAusb.u.ErsBtl 12.

I have never heard about an re-inforcement with former cavalrymen. If they were not used to rebuild Cavalry units, they maybe have found their way to the division with one of the above described units. But I do not know any source about that to be sure.

Best wishes,

andernach

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by army group south » 14 May 2013 03:11

Sorry for the long post here, it is my only source, and where i got my understanding of the transfer of men from the Volksdeutsche Cavalry to the 12.SS-Pz.Division "HitlerYouth". I have highlighted the statement of importance. Thank you for your help and response on this...

This description taken from;
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... &start=135

On behalf of Roland Pfeiffer should I set following from him:
1. Volksdeutsche cavalry regiment of the Waffen-SS (Vopersal W., BA-MA N 756)

Designations: 15.03.1942 - 00.03.1943 1.Volksdeutsches Cavalry Regiment
00:03 .1943 - 00.10.19441. Volksdeutsches cavalry regiment of the Waffen-SS
took over after the occupation by German troops in southern Russia from November / December 1941, the SS-Sonderkommando "R" (South) with the use of semi-urban group ( Molotschna) the collection and care of lying in Tauris ethnic German settlement areas east of the Molotschna. It included about 145 closed German settlements in which lived outweigh Mennonite who had their Wehrlosigkeitsprinzip already under Soviet rule to give up. A large part of the ethnic German male population in this area had been abducted shortly before the arrival of the German troops by the Soviets. The area was under the German military administration, the commander of the (rear) area B of the Army Hgr. South (= from 07/09/1942 HGr. B)

In March 1942, asked the Army to Reichsführer-SS to establish a self-protection from the local ethnic German population in the form of closed Reiterschwadronen by Einsatzgruppe Halbstadt the SS special forces "R" (South). The training staff as well as uniforms, weapons and equipment, the latter mostly from prey stocks, introduced the Wehrmacht available. Responsible for the preparation and care on behalf of the Armed Forces, and in agreement with the Reichsführer-SS, the Einsatzgruppe Halbstadt the SS-Sonderkommando "R" ( South). The training staff put the Waffen-SS

03.15.1942 - 00.09.1942 formation and training division 1. Schwadron in Prischib, 2.Schwadron in Halbstadt, 3. Schwadron in Waldheim, 4. Schwadron Gnadenfeld in the second - 4. Schwadron consisted almost exclusively ais Mennoiten while in 1. Schwadron Lutherans and Catholics were; clothing in uniforms used by the Wehrmacht.
00.06.1942 swearing in half city, thickness about 750 to 800 people of German
00.06.1942 - 00.08.1942 laying 3. Schwadron of Mariupol in the room and use the protection of the Black Sea coast with subordination to the senior field commander Donets 397 in Dnepropetrovsk / commanding general of security troops and commanders in the army area B / Army Group. B In August 1942 the 3. Schwadron moved back to Waldheim.
10.02.1942 - 00.10.1942 use of parts for securing the rear area in the senior field commander Donets 397 in Dnepropetrovsk and south to the Sea of Azov (Mariupol area) to the east the Don and Donets with lower subordination to the state Rifle Regiment 177/OK I/154 (Sslawjansk) / OFK Donets (397) / commander General of Sich.Tr. u.Befh. H.Gebiet in B. / Army Group. B.
From 00.10.1942 securing the railway Mariupol - Stalinio insinuation: OFK Donets (397) / commander General of Sich.Tr. u.Befh. H.Gebiet B / Army Group. B.
31/10/1942 survey by the Reichsführer-SS in semi urban and subordination to the HSSuPF Russia-South, continue their education by training personnel of the Order Police 00.12.1942 - Spring 1943 securing the ethnic German settlement area Tauris (1st, 2nd and 3rd Squadron )
Winter 1942/1943 loss Reicher 4.Schwadron to use the tape against the Don bend at Slavjansk insinuation: OFK Donets (397) / commander General of Sich.Tr. u.Befh. H.Gebiet B. / Army Group. B.
Upon returning from the mission to gnadenfeld 4. Schwadron was dissolved and the rest of the squadron incorporated into the 3. Schwadron; displacement of members of 2./SS-Kav.Ers.Abt. Cholm and the SS-Remonteamt Rejowiec as "SS Training Command" for further education of the ethnic German Reiterschwadronen.
early 1943 until 09/10/1943 securing the ethnic German settlement area in Tauris.
spring of 1943, use of parts, including 3. Schwadron, to guard Russian workers in Tomak
March (?) 1943 contraction of the first - 3. Schwadron and closed housing in Tomak; transfer to the Waffen-SS, rearmament.
09.08. 28.8.1943 and inspection by the commander of the Waffen-SS and Russian-South Ukraine
10.09.1943 - 24.10.1943 securing the ethnic German evacuation treks out of the room and Halbstadt of Melitopol Achowka on the Dnieper - Berrislwa - Alexandrowka
24.10.1943 - 11.1943 end of the retreat Regiments from the room Alexandrowka - Nikolayev on Uman in the area of Gajsin (Gaissin), while battles with gangs and regular forces of the Red Army
in late November 1943 - 00.01.1944 obtaining lodging in space Gajsin, taking regimental headquarters in Gajsin and 3. Schwadron in Sherdenawka. Gajsin securing the room, fighting with gangs
12/26/1943 abandonment one Vorkommandos to Vinnitsa, where the transfer should take place.
03/01/1944 Return of Vorkommandos after Gajsin. 00.01.1944 march back into the room Gorodok, obtaining local lodging at Gorodok order
to 02.10.1944 - 00.04.1944 onward march of Gajsin about Kamenetz Podosk (as in the original, or Gorodok?) - past Tarnopol - Lviv - Przemysl - Reichshof into space Debica.
00.04.1944 . Obtaining local lodging in space Debica
04/05/1944 relocation to Krakow; secondment about 180 man (Mennoiten) for SS Kav.AuEAbt, Warsaw, the Warsaw-the 8. SS-Kav.Div. "Florian Geyer" were fed in Baja, Hungary, From May 1944, the regiment was disbanded train to train. In May 1944, the displacement of a further 300 man-to 8. SS-Kav.Division, in September 1944, of about 300 men as Nachersatz to 12. SS-Pz.Division "Hitlerjugend", and finally in October 1944, once the transfer of 200 men to 8. SS-Kav.Division (SS-15 and SS-AA Kav.Rgt. 8) Two of the SS leader, SS-Hauptsturmführer Wolfgang Craass the reserve and SS First Lieutenant Alfred Kufahl Kufahl (* 08.12.08 Stettin, SS-Nr. 490.735, 10.44 SS-Ostuf. 8. SS-Kav.Div., no further entries in the guide list Moore) were the SS-Main Office, added Office Group D, to the 'Vlasov action "use to find. leader: SS-Sturmbannführer Hermann Roßner MDAB 16.03.1942 - 31.12.1943 ... (6.1908 * 28 Berlin, SS-Nr. 2.770, 11.42 SS-Ostubaf. i Sonderkommando "R", 6.44 SS-Ostubaf i 8 bar SS-Kav.Div., died 24.10.1997 Düsseldorf, Moore, leader list, not in the DAL Wass 01/07/1944, 01/10/1944, according to DAL SS # 594 spelling "Rossner" 11/01/1942 SS-Ostubaf. maintained by the Reich Security Main Office , Party-Nr. 145.182, no rank in the Waffen-SS, skull ring and sword of honor, no further Auszeichnungen). SS Hauptsturmführer of the reserve Wolfgang Craass mdFb 01.01.1944 - 10.10.1944 (spelling in Vopersal "Craas" at Moore " Craaß ", in the DAL Wass 07.01.1944 No 1382" Craass "* 23.12.13 Hamburg, SS-Nr. 139.226, 5.40 Ustuf. Nachr.Offz u., SS-Kav.Brig. (according to Moore, prob. SS-T RR 1?), 20/07/1942 Bef such SS-Hstuf. dR 2.45 Hstuf. i SS-Main Office (Vlasov) Act ‡, 3.45, leader list Moore) insinuations Einsatzgruppe Halbstadt / SS-Sonderkommando " R "(South) 00.03.1942 - 00.10.1942 HSSuPF Russia-South and Ukraine 31.10.1942 - 00.03.1943 there, partly temporary tactical insinuations State Rifle Regiment 177 / OFK Donets (397) / commander General of Sich.Tr. u.Befh. H.Gebiet B. / Army Group. B 05.09.1942 - 00.10.1942 OFK Donets (397) / commander General of Sich.Tr. u.Befh. H.Gebiet B. / Army Group. B. 00.11.1942 - 14.02.1943 OFK Donets (397) / commander General of Sich.Tr. u.Befh. H.Gebiet B. / Army Group. B. 00.01.1943 as Higher SS and Police Leader Russia-South and Ukraine 00.03.1943 - 14.07.1943 Commander of the Waffen-SS Russia-South and Ukraine 14.07.1943 - 10.09.1943 The assumption conditions for the period 09/11/1943 - 00:05 could not be clarified .1944 SS Main Office 00.05.1944 - 00.10.1944 Sources: Communications H. Rossner at W. Vopersal records Edward Reimer, former member of the 3.Schwadron Oberfeldkommandantur Donets, Abt. Ia, Br.B. 267/42 geh Betr. v. 5.9.1942 field of OFK Donets, BA RH 22/87 Oberfeldkommandantur Donets v. 9.10.1942 Betr. army area commander of security forces B, BA, RH 22/87 additions and corrections are warmly welcome halloo! Nicole

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by army group south » 15 May 2013 19:19

Does anyone know more about this information and where it came from? Does the BA-MA at the begining not refer to Bundesarchiv, Military archive? Is there a way to find out a feldpost number of this unit? How do I discover more about those involved in this Volksdeutsche Cavalry Unit? S.

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by andernach » 16 May 2013 20:30

Hello,

Try this link:

http://www.karlhoeffkes.de/archives/7714

maybe you will find a relative :wink:


Best wishes,

andernach

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by andernach » 16 May 2013 20:38

Hello,
another link:

http://forum-der-wehrmacht.de/print.php ... e11800ae2a

best wishes,

andernach

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by army group south » 17 May 2013 16:58

Many thanks Andernach, information on this topic is very hard to find. The video is amazing! Both my grandparents came from this area, and seeing this footage gives one a small glimpse into their life during this time.

thanks again S.

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by army group south » 09 Sep 2013 16:46

Still searching here...wondering if someone might know how i can confirm the above information and where it came from? What does this mean...
(Vopersal W., BA-MA N 756) and how can i discover more about where this info came from and its accuracy. Vopersal is someone's name correct? And BA-MA is Bundesarchiv, Military archive correct? Is this info available for purchase if I go to the archive in Germany? This is the only source of information I have been able to find about the unit my Opa was in. thanks for any help

S.

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by Tom Peters » 10 Sep 2013 01:10

Vopersal is the author of a number of documents on SS and Heer units. The records can be retrieved from the Bundearchiv (you can order them over the internet), although you will need an additional number after the N756 (N756/xxx) to define the precise set of files.

Search for "Nachlass Wolfgang Vopersal" on the BAMA webpage:

http://startext.net-build.de:8080/barch ... /index.htm

Mad Dog

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Re: 12. SS-Pz-Division "Hitlerjugend" Sept. 1944 Re-inforcem

Post by army group south » 10 Sep 2013 04:31

Thanks very much Mad Dog! Exactly what I was looking for. Have you ever ordered this sort of info before? Is it presented similarly to what i have listed above, do you know? The record above says only N756, but with a little digging on the link you shared, I think i found what I'm after.
thanks again

cheers
S.

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