The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

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Kelvin
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The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Kelvin » 27 May 2011 21:52

In Normandy, fully motorized German III. Flak-Korps had following units :

I./Flak-Rgt. 1

II./Flak-Rgt. 1

I./Flak-Rgt. 20

II./Flak-Rgt. 52

I./Flak-Rgt. 22

II./Flak-Rgt.64

I./Flak-Rgt. 35

I./Flak-Rgt. 53

I./Flak-Rgt. 141

All these units were mixed flak units ( heavy batterie and light batterie mixed together) , I would like to ask whether these nine units were organized like the following standard organization ?

1-3. Batterie : each 4 x 8.8 cm towed , 3 x 2 cm solo towed
4. Batterie : 9 x 3.7 cm (self-propelled)
5. Batterie : 9 x 2 cm solo self-propelled and 3 x 2 cm vierl self-propelled

Anyone have data on this less known unit actual organization ? ( On June 23 1944, III. Flak-Korps had 27 schwere batteries and 26 leichte batterie), schwere Batterie matched this organization but the leichte Batterie did not match and hope someone could help on that.


Remark : apart from these nine units, she also had one leichte flak unit : Flak-Abteilung 996, maybe some leichte Batterie came from this unit.

Tom Peters
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Tom Peters » 28 May 2011 04:07

FMS-B-597 and FMS-P-156 might contain information on this unit.

Mad Dog

Kelvin
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Kelvin » 28 May 2011 11:04

Hi, Maddog, M597 doesn't have that data. :(

Larry D.
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Larry D. » 28 May 2011 14:07

Not to be found in any surviving Luftwaffe records. Try surviving AOK 7 records.

Kelvin
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Kelvin » 01 Jun 2011 15:54

I have some additional data concerning III Flak Korps and her main four Flak regiments were formed from 431. 653. 79 and 37.Flak Regiments and was trained as mobile and ground support unit for supporting Panzergruppe West.

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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Larry D. » 01 Jun 2011 16:12

I have a complete history of III. Flakkorps taken from the following sources:

[Sources: NARA WashDC: RG 242 (T-971 roll 18/054); NASM T-2/USSBS Captured German/Japanese Technical Documents, roll 7009/15250; British NA London: ULTRA signals to the Field Commands (several); Foreign Military Studies, Manuscript B-597 by Gen.Lt. Wolfgang Pickert, “III AA Corps in the Normandy Battles” (43 pages); Manuscript B-313 by Gen.Lt. Heino von Rantzau, “Participation in the Fighting Within the Ruhr Pocket from 25 March to 17 April 45” (20 pages); Koch, Horst-Adalbert - Flak: Die Geschichte der deutschen Flakartillerie und der Luftwaffenhelfer (Bad Nauheim, 1965), p.443; web site http://www.ww2.dk.]

But NO source material has been found that identifies and counts the number of guns in each Zug, Batterie, Abteilung and Regiment in June 1944. And who cares? We know in general terms the types and quantity of weapons in a gem.Flak-Abt.(mot), (v) or (o), so what difference could it make if this Batterie or that Batterie had a few more or a few less? Machts nichts. :roll:

Kelvin
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Kelvin » 01 Jun 2011 16:44

I do care for this exact data. I think some of our members also care for this. Books written by Jeff Dugdale, Niklas Zetterling and Kamen Nevenkin also care for that. If we only knew the authorized organization, we cannot know the German exact strength in specific battlefield and battle. I also want to be another Martin Block in the long run but I do need time to become, so in this moment, I need to post it for help from some other members.

Larry D.
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Larry D. » 01 Jun 2011 17:27

To each his own...........good luck.

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Manuferey
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Manuferey » 02 Jun 2011 00:37

Kelvin wrote:In Normandy, fully motorized German III. Flak-Korps had following units :

I./Flak-Rgt. 1
II./Flak-Rgt. 1
I./Flak-Rgt. 20
II./Flak-Rgt. 52
I./Flak-Rgt. 22
II./Flak-Rgt.64
I./Flak-Rgt. 35
I./Flak-Rgt. 53
I./Flak-Rgt. 141
Kevin,

From what I understand according to various sources, III. Flak Korps was composed in June 44 of Flak-Sturm-Regiment 1, 2, 3 and 4. The “Sturm” was added to show in particular that they were composed of mobile batteries.

For instance, II./Flak-Regt 64 became part of Flak-Sturm-Regiment 3. (see http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... erieLW.htm)

However, at least one German source (see the telephone log book of the 352. ID on D-Day) still refer to Flak-Regt 32 on June 6 instead of Flak-Sturm-Regt 1.

Emmanuel

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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by RichTO90 » 02 Jun 2011 02:36

Manuferey wrote:From what I understand according to various sources, III. Flak Korps was composed in June 44 of Flak-Sturm-Regiment 1, 2, 3 and 4. The “Sturm” was added to show in particular that they were composed of mobile batteries.

For instance, II./Flak-Regt 64 became part of Flak-Sturm-Regiment 3. (see http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... erieLW.htm)

However, at least one German source (see the telephone log book of the 352. ID on D-Day) still refer to Flak-Regt 32 on June 6 instead of Flak-Sturm-Regt 1.

Emmanuel
Quite. The Abteilungen were redesignated 18-24 June, but most retained their original designation in actual fact. III Flak-Korps began organizing in April, but it only became operational after 1 June, shortly before the invasion.
Gefechtsstand – Paris
Kdr: General der Flakartillerie Wolfgang Pickert
Ia: Oberstleutnant Wilhelm Schlodder

Stab/Flak-Sturm-Regt.1 Organized April 1944 from elements of Stab/ Flak-Regt. 431.
Gefechtsstand – Isigny-Bayeux
Kdr: Oberst Paul von Kistowski

gem.Flak-Abtl.266 (mot) Officially redesignated II./Flak-Sturm-Regt.1 on 24 June 1944, the battalion had been in Paris under 1. Flak Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 100) as late as 1 June and had just arrived in Normandy. 5. and 6. Batterie were in Cherbourg under 13. Flak-Division and were probably lost there.
Kdr: Hauptmann Schmuck
Gefechtsstand – south of Longueville
1.-3. Batterie were heavy and 4..-6. Batterie were light.

gem. Flak.-Abtl. 497 (mot) Assigned to 13. Flak-Division (Stab/Flak-Regiment 15) at Rennes as late as 1 June. Officially redesignated I./Flak-Sturm-Regt.1 on 24 June 1944.
Kdr: Hauptmann Stein
Gefechtsstand – northeast of Isigny
1.-4. Batterie were heavy and 5.-6. were light.

le. Flak-Abtl. 90 (mot) Assigned to 13. Flak-Division (Stab/Flak-Regiment 15) as late as 1 June. Redesignated Selbstfahrlafette (Sf.) or self-propelled carriage in July 1944.
Gefechtsstand – Bayeux
1.-3, Batterie were light

Stab/Flak-Sturm-Regt. 2 Organized April 1944 from elements of Stab/Flak-Regt. 653.
Kdr: Oberst Josef Moser
Gefechtsstand – Amiens
gem.I./Flak-Regt. 20 (mot) Assigned to 16. Flak-Division (Stab/Flak-Regiment 11) as late as 1 June.
1.-3. Batterie were heavy and 4.-5. Batterie were light

gem.II./Flak-Regt. 52 (mot) Assigned to 16. Flak-Division (Stab/Flak-Regiment 11) as late as 1 June.
6.-8. Batterie were heavy and 9.-10. Batterie were light

le.Flak-Abt. 80 (Sf) Assigned to 12. Flak-Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 45) as late as 1 June.
1.-3, Batterie were light

Stab/Flak-Sturm-Regt. 3 Organized April 1944 from elements of Stab/Flak-Regt. 37.
Kdr: Oberst Oskar Schöttl
Gefechtsstand – Arras

gem.II./Flak-Regt. 22 (mot) Assigned to 16. Flak-Division (Stab/Flak-Regiment 11) as late as 1 June.
6.-8. Batterie were heavy and 9.-10. Batterie were light

gem.II./Flak-Regt. 64 (mot) Assigned to 18. Flak-Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 87) as late as 1 June.
6.-8. Batterie were heavy and 9.-10. Batterie were light

le.Flak-Abt. 84 (Sf) Assigned to 18. Flak-Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 87) as late as 1 June.
1.-3, Batterie were light

Stab/Flak-Sturm-Regt. 4 Organized April 1944 from elements of Stab/Flak-Regt. 79.
Kdr: Oberst Herbert Röhler
Gefechtsstand – Amiens

gem.I./Flak-Regt. 35 (mot) Assigned to 18. Flak-Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 87) as late as 1 June.
1.-3. Batterie were heavy and 4.-5. Batterie were light

gem.I./Flak-Regt. 53 (mot) Assigned to 18. Flak-Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 87) as late as 1 June.
1.-3. Batterie were heavy and 4.-5. Batterie were light

gem.I./Flak-Regt. 141 (mot) Assigned to 18. Flak-Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 87) as late as 1 June.
1.-3. Batterie were heavy and 4.-5. Batterie were light

le.Flak-Abt. 98 (Sfl) Assigned to 18. Flak-Brigade (Stab/Flak-Regiment 87) as late as 1 June.
1.-3, Batterie were light

Luftnachrichten-Abteilung 103

Thus, the total was nominally 28 heavy batteries and 31 light batteries. The figure given for 23 June, 27 heavy and 26 light batteries, probably reflects the tactical organization and may exclude the two batteries of gem.Flak-Abtl.266 trapped in Cherbourg. Likewise, the figure for 8 August, 29 heavy and 40 light batteries, probably reflects the tactical organization, including the three 8-gun Flakkampfgruppen organized in July.
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

Martin Block
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Martin Block » 02 Jun 2011 09:49

Kelvin,

if you actually want to become another me - Good Heavens?! - you should perhaps stop continuously asking other people for help, i.e. to do the work for you - can't remember ever doing that myself BTW - and get out there and do some more serious research work of your own. This takes (long) time and (much) money, knowledge and understandig of German military language etc. and is a slow process. But in doing so you will find many of the answers to your questions by yourself. That may one day enable you to approach other researcher on more equal terms that won't make exchange of information a one side affair. You also should IMHO at times be a bit more thoughtful in your statements/comments/answers in online forums like this when dealing with people who are in the 'business' already for a couple of more years than you are. Every now and then it might be better to just shut up instead of allways wanting to have the final word.

Just my 2 Cents

Martin Block

Larry D.
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Larry D. » 02 Jun 2011 12:48

Amen, brother Block, amen. You covered all the bases. Well said. But I might add that Kelvin needs to learn to say "thank you" a lot more, too. I, for one, move on once the same individual has failed to say "thanks" after I've spent an hour researching and answering their questions several times. They are added to my 'list' and I do not help them again. As you so poignantly noted, after spending 45 years and many hundreds of thousands of dollars in direct and indirect expenses accumulating knowledge of my field(s) of interest, it is very difficult to work up much respect and enthusiasm for those who do all of their "research" on the internet. If you can't afford the books, microfilms and travel, then take up another hobby.

L.

RichTO90
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by RichTO90 » 02 Jun 2011 15:32

Larry D. wrote:If you can't afford the books, microfilms and travel, then take up another hobby.

L.
I'll add my amens too Larry, plus the observation that how you manage to do it while living in Sarasota adds a whole new level of difficulty - I'd be on Siesta Beach instead if I was in your place. :lol: But that's part of the reason why I'm trying to move back to the DC Metro area right now - I'm just too damned far from Archives II (and NDU, I happened to run across a trove of AGF documents there the other day) and can't find any worthwhile Chinese food in Newport News after living here nearly three years. :D

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

RichTO90
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by RichTO90 » 02 Jun 2011 15:38

Larry D. wrote:We know in general terms the types and quantity of weapons in a gem.Flak-Abt.(mot), (v) or (o), so what difference could it make if this Batterie or that Batterie had a few more or a few less? Machts nichts. :roll:
Yep. I should have mentioned in relation to this that of course the two gem.Flak-Abt. of 1. Flak-Sturm-Regiment were actually designated as (v) until at least 1 June, which is yet another indicator of the actual nature of III Flak-Korps. It was a reorganization of existing assets in France more than anything else. Of course, I would like to be able to figure out which battalion was equipped with the three Flak 41 batteries, but that's just me being anal retentive. :lol:

Cheers!
Richard Anderson
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall: the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers on D-Day
Stackpole Books, 2009.

Larry D.
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Re: The actual organization of III. Flak-Korps Normandy

Post by Larry D. » 02 Jun 2011 16:05

Thanks for the thoughts, Rich. Actually, Winter Springs is a 'burb of Mousetown, but that's just as far from D.C. as Sarasota so it's the same thing. I used to spend 3 to 4 weeks each summer at NARA from 1979 to 1989 when all the records were either downtown at 8th and Pennsylvania or out at the Suitland Federal Records Center. I've only been to College Park once, and than was in October 2002.

There should be a lot more ULTRA decrypts on the forces in Normandy in the BNA HW 5 material in London, including intercepts to and from III. Flakkorps and its units. Routine reports such as Batterie and Abteilung weapon types and strength would be included in these. Reports of this sort were not considered ungent or important enough to forward to the Allied commands in the field so they have never seen the light of day until very recently when HW 5 was finally opened to researchers.

L.

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