German armor units in south ukraine 1944

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Sparta1978
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German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by Sparta1978 » 13 May 2011 17:11

Hello,
I m looking for german units facing 3rd gurds tank army timeframe 4 march- 17 april 1944 in west ukraine. Its battle path was Around towns of Prokrustov, Volokochisk, Kremenets, Shepetovka. Towns in further 10 mile radius Rovno, Lutsk, Vladimir Volinskiy, Zhitomir, kamenets Podolskiy.

German armor appears to fall under armygroup south ukraine, which appears to have had 1st and 4th tank groups.

Documents talk of both panther and tiger tanks. I'd like to figure out who opposed them, and who had these tanks.

David

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Re: German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by Panther Arthur » 15 May 2011 15:56

A first step for this, David, would be reading of the wiki entry for the kamenets Podolskiy pocket on the net to give you an overview of the larger battle of "Hube's wandering pocket" -in some of your search result the 1. Pz Armee OOB (Order of battle) will tell you waht Panzer units were involved at this stage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamenets-Podolsky_Pocket

Above is the link and it has the OOB on it for the Germans. That easy. You may have got this page already, but the internet is a great tool. You just have to give it a kick and make it work for you. :milwink:

Arthur.

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 17 May 2011 12:07

You need Rolf Hinze's trilogy of books on the fighting on the southern flank of the Eastern Front in 1944 and 1945. The particular volume you need for this is "The Crucible of Combat" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucible-Combat ... sr=1-2-ent. The books are as boring as hell, a dry academic tone that sends you to sleep but the information in it is the best. :roll:

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 20 May 2011 07:18

I have had a quick look for you but there are problems that means the research would take too long for me to do unless you are offering something in return. My interest is infantry defence so German field orders or maps would be of interest.

The problems are: Hinze does not often refer to Soviet units as such, there is no index so you have to read the whole text, since this book was originally written in German , the maps are in German and so the place names to not correspond with the ones you give, the book covers a huge area but only parts of it and is so confusing that I keep a map in the front which shows which chapters relate to which area (you need chapters 22-26 for Prosskorow-Shitomir, 32-33 for Kamenez Podolsk and 27-31 for Tarnopol by the way). But on the plus side there is a lot of information on German units.

So my basic research was Wikipedia which gave me the fact that 3 GTA was part of 1st Ukrainian Front - that gave me the chapters in the book to look at. The maps in those chapters show few Soviet units but map 72 the one on p319 does show 3 GTA for the period 5th March to 12th March and the nearest German armoureed unit at that point was 7th Panzer Division with SS LAH on its way to reinforce its eastern flank.

What I would do is to put the line of advance of 3 GTA on a map of the Ukraine and post it in this thread, so people can see where you are talking about and to share whatever sources you are refering to so that they get some information back in return.

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genstab
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Re: German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by genstab » 22 May 2011 20:11

As a matter of general interest, the Wikipedia article's O/B for 1. Panzerarmee is from later March. It doesn't correspond with Tessin's for 3 March, when HQ III Panzerkorps was in Army reserve, 11th and 16th Panzer Divisions weren't in the Army, and neither were 75th and 82nd Infantry Divisions, shown in Wikipedia's O/B under XXXXVI. Panzerkorps. An O/B isn't much good without knowing its date- and for veracity its source. Maybe it's all explained in Hinze's book; I'm going to have to get it.

Best regards,
Genstab

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Re: German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by Spacewrangler » 24 Jan 2015 02:17

Der Alte Fritz wrote:You need Rolf Hinze's trilogy of books on the fighting on the southern flank of the Eastern Front in 1944 and 1945. The particular volume you need for this is "The Crucible of Combat" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucible-Combat ... sr=1-2-ent. The books are as boring as hell, a dry academic tone that sends you to sleep but the information in it is the best. :roll:
This was very helpful I have been looking for any pockets on this tactical withdrawel which in essence was a victory in my mind after first reading about it vaugley in Guderian's autobiography "Panzer Leader" I need to find those three books you just mentioned to get a better grasp , I would like maps, like in Guderian's Auto and I would like to more of how Hans-Valentin Hube's organized this military feat making Paulus look like a coward in my eyes, Papa Hube's proved he could save the first army by fighting his way west

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 24 Jan 2015 19:21

You can read more at these posts:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=92316
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=

and US Army Pamphlet 20-234 has an account http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/20234/20234.html

I think there is also an account in Eduard Raus' memoirs, I think.

Of course Hans Hube was a commander at Stalingrad but could not persuade Hitler to order the withdrawal and was flown out of the pocket at the last minute before the airfields were lost. The differences between the two were quite stark.

6.Armee had been short of supplies for months so all the horses had been sent back to the Don before winter, so that the armee was virtually immobile, fuel was short for the motor vehicles and the only railway line was of very low capacity. 6 Armee and the Romanian Armies required 7,000 tonnes of supplies see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=120. Any breakout was going to be across open steppe with no cover and with troops able to bring light weapons and some light artillery, all of the wounded and heavy artillery would be left behind. A breakout at Stalingrad would be similar (only on a larger scale and greater distances) to the Korsun Pocket. The one attempt that was made by von Seydlitz-Kurzbach's LI ArmeeKorps showed how easily the Germans would have been cut to ribbons once they left their fixed defences and tried to cross the open steppe.

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Re: German armor units in south ukraine 1944

Post by Slava2012 » 11 Oct 2021 06:31

For a complete picture of understanding the tragedy of the 6th Army, you need to re-read Manstein. He very fully and objectively describes the entire strategic formation of the German troops during those tragic battles from his words. more opponents and so without tanks, guns and shells to them it is not possible.Moreover, as a result of a large and deep breakthrough, Russian troops entered the operational space and the German front completely collapsed (In the German front line there was a hole 200 kilometers wide, it was a strategic disaster for the Germans, and just so that the German front line had time to recover at an advantageous line, you need there was a time and the 6th army, by its self-sacrifice, saved the German front for further confrontation, that is, it was a conscious sacrifice to achieve a strategic goal(According to Manstein).

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