Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

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Sleipnir11
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Sleipnir11 » 26 Sep 2016 04:41

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=15

This is a useful thread. There were KVs, T34s, T26s ...all sorts making up the Soviet armour strength on 22 June 1941...
From the deployment data on 22 June 1941 the Kiev Special MD held about 60% of the available T-34s (near 1000 overall) in six tank divisions, in which three of them were equipped with more than 100 each. Does it imply that the possibility of Wittmann meeting up with T-34s on 12 July 1941 was high in the LAH combat area some distance west of Kiev?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 26 Sep 2016 05:03

Sleipnir11 wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=15

This is a useful thread. There were KVs, T34s, T26s ...all sorts making up the Soviet armour strength on 22 June 1941...
From the deployment data on 22 June 1941 the Kiev Special MD held about 60% of the available T-34s (near 1000 overall) in six tank divisions, in which three of them were equipped with more than 100 each. Does it imply that the possibility of Wittmann meeting up with T-34s on 12 July 1941 was high in the LAH combat area some distance west of Kiev?
I don't see why not. Unless there is specific evidence to the contrary.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by HistoryBuff1 » 27 Sep 2016 22:26

Just out of interest, my Uncle George was a driver in one of the Bren Gun Carriers that was destroyed by Wittmann. He was the sole survivor of the crew and spent 9 months in a military hospital in Aldershot on account of his wounds. He was still leaking shrapnel till the day he died. He blamed the RAF who were supposed to have done aerial reconnaissance before the column moved. I don't know as I wasn't there, but he was a clued-up bloke.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 28 Sep 2016 11:10

HistoryBuff1 wrote:Just out of interest, my Uncle George was a driver in one of the Bren Gun Carriers that was destroyed by Wittmann. He was the sole survivor of the crew and spent 9 months in a military hospital in Aldershot on account of his wounds. He was still leaking shrapnel till the day he died. He blamed the RAF who were supposed to have done aerial reconnaissance before the column moved. I don't know as I wasn't there, but he was a clued-up bloke.
Very interesting !! Was this at Villers Bocage?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 08 Oct 2016 07:14

VB.jpg
Nice work ...Wittmann at Villers Bocage. But were the wreckages stacked neatly by the roadside for the Bundesarchiv pic? Or are they lying where they were hit ?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Texas Jäger » 02 Jun 2022 23:05

I know this is an old thread, but: the last tanks Wittmann were attributed with were from Villers-Bocage? He was present for Goodwood (returned from leave on July 13) did he not get any tank kills in July?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by askropp » 27 Jul 2022 21:04

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
08 Oct 2016 07:14

But were the wreckages stacked neatly by the roadside for the Bundesarchiv pic? Or are they lying where they were hit ?
Taylor argues that the pics must have been taken on 14 June. I doubt that someone had the time, nerve and means to rearrange the wrecks in the intervening period. The adjacent debris seems to fit. According to Taylor the halftracks and carriers were lined up along the roadside so that the expected reinforcements (the remaining Sharpshooters and the 1/7th Queens) could pass them and reach Point 213.

What I would like to know is how Wittmann destroyed those halftracks and carriers. He can hardly have fired individual AP rounds at each of them. But were the 7,92 mm standard machine guns on the Tiger capable of destroying an halftrack?
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by John Hilly » 28 Jul 2022 14:04

askropp wrote:
27 Jul 2022 21:04
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
08 Oct 2016 07:14

But were the wreckages stacked neatly by the roadside for the Bundesarchiv pic? Or are they lying where they were hit ?
Taylor argues that the pics must have been taken on 14 June. I doubt that someone had the time, nerve and means to rearrange the wrecks in the intervening period. The adjacent debris seems to fit. According to Taylor the halftracks and carriers were lined up along the roadside so that the expected reinforcements (the remaining Sharpshooters and the 1/7th Queens) could pass them and reach Point 213.

What I would like to know is how Wittmann destroyed those halftracks and carriers. He can hardly have fired individual AP rounds at each of them. But were the 7,92 mm standard machine guns on the Tiger capable of destroying an halftrack?
HE shells naturally.
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by askropp » 28 Jul 2022 17:15

Well, naturally any 88 mm shell could destroy those vehicles, but I was wondering about the time factor. I think there were a dozen or more halftracks and carriers. Shooting them all up with the main gun should have taken several minutes, and most accounts claim the whole morning action lasted only about ten minutes.
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Jul 2022 17:47

askropp wrote:
28 Jul 2022 17:15
Well, naturally any 88 mm shell could destroy those vehicles, but I was wondering about the time factor. I think there were a dozen or more halftracks and carriers. Shooting them all up with the main gun should have taken several minutes, and most accounts claim the whole morning action lasted only about ten minutes.

It is very simple really. Forget the whole 'single' Tiger stops a whole Regiment/Brigade/Division version.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 28 Jul 2022 21:14

SmK ammunition would have been able to deal with lightly armoured vehicles at closer ranges.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by askropp » 28 Jul 2022 21:41

Michael Kenny wrote:
28 Jul 2022 17:47

Forget the whole 'single' Tiger stops a whole Regiment/Brigade/Division version.
Well, I didn't believe that even long before the books of Taylor and Deprun / Jouault appeared. Neither can I understand why Anglo-Saxon scholars and amateurs always have been so fascinated by "Mikel Whitman", although most of them cannot even pronounce his name. But as I understand it, it is still commonly accepted that Wittmann's tank (whether it was 212 or 231) destroyed the carrier column more or less singlehandedly.
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by askropp » 06 Aug 2022 19:22

Les mitrailleuses de bord se mettent à cribler les véhicules légers les uns après les autres, qui pour la plupart s'enflamment aussitôt. Le premier Universal Carrier de la colonne tente bien un demi-tour mais le Tiger est trop proche et l'équipage anglais doit s'enfuir à travers les haies. Nous pensons que Wittmann a vraisemblablement jugé inutile de traiter chaque cible avec son armement lourd qu'il utilise de sa grande expérience alors avec parcimonie. En observant les nombreuses images des épaves sur la route, nous pouvons constater que la grande majorité des véhicules est simplement brûlée et non pas soufflée par des explosions ou perforée d'obus antichar. Néanmoins, quand le chef de char l'a probablement estimé nécessaire, un tir de 8,8 a pu sur son ordre ponctuer cet assaut fulgurant pour détruire une chenillette ou pulvériser un half-track en particulier.
So Deprun / Jouault confirm that Wittmann primarily used his machine guns to destroy the carrier column, simply setting them on fire. I am still astonished how easy this was. They may have been hit from above or (in the case of the halftacks) through the open frontal armor plates.
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Aug 2022 20:31

askropp wrote:
06 Aug 2022 19:22


So Deprun / Jouault confirm that Wittmann primarily used his machine guns to destroy the carrier column,
They 'confirm' nothing of the sort. There is no accurate information about what exactly set all the vehicles ablaze but the jerry-cans left lying about give a hint. Not all the half-tracks were damaged and at least one was used by SS 101.
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 09 Aug 2022 13:51

askropp wrote:
06 Aug 2022 19:22
Les mitrailleuses de bord se mettent à cribler les véhicules légers les uns après les autres, qui pour la plupart s'enflamment aussitôt. Le premier Universal Carrier de la colonne tente bien un demi-tour mais le Tiger est trop proche et l'équipage anglais doit s'enfuir à travers les haies. Nous pensons que Wittmann a vraisemblablement jugé inutile de traiter chaque cible avec son armement lourd qu'il utilise de sa grande expérience alors avec parcimonie. En observant les nombreuses images des épaves sur la route, nous pouvons constater que la grande majorité des véhicules est simplement brûlée et non pas soufflée par des explosions ou perforée d'obus antichar. Néanmoins, quand le chef de char l'a probablement estimé nécessaire, un tir de 8,8 a pu sur son ordre ponctuer cet assaut fulgurant pour détruire une chenillette ou pulvériser un half-track en particulier.
So Deprun / Jouault confirm that Wittmann primarily used his machine guns to destroy the carrier column, simply setting them on fire. I am still astonished how easy this was. They may have been hit from above or (in the case of the halftacks) through the open frontal armor plates.
The MG ammunition was designed for this purpose:
Dazu habe ich noch aus der Waffen Revue Nr. 5 Seite 833 bezüglich der 7,9 mm Patrone S.m.K. (Spitzgeschoß mit Kern)

Panzerdurchschlag auf 100m bei 60° = Durchschlag 6 mm Panzerstahl,

Panzerdurchschlag auf 100m bei 90° = Durchschlag 11 mm Panzerstahl,
https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/inde ... fahrungen/

German early and light armoured vehicles in turn were designed to defeat these rounds (Sm-K Sicher), so they had a lot of angling of their amour.

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/panzer1.htm

M3 halftrack armour was 6-12mm at practically no slanting. At short range SmK rounds would go straight through and rattle around inside.

Based on the history of 3 Inf Div, the British experienced this problem when Montgomery as GOC 3 Inf Div in 1940 used some carriers as tank replacements, and they were all cut up. Universal carrier armour 7-10mm and all vertical.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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