Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

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stg 44
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 15:14

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: They were added to his kill totals. Why do you think all this awarded kills came from his time in the Tiger? Or is this you just strawmanning yet again?
As a matter of fact every single one of his 135-ish score (depending on source) is a Tiger kill-every single one.
Source?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 15:27

stg 44 wrote: Source?
See previous post.
I did something very simple. I counted all the kills made for Wittmann July 1943-Aug 1944.
Wittmann lasted just 13 months. Perhaps someone could find pre-Kursk references to his career?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 15:29

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Source?
See previous post.
I did something very simple. I counted all the kills made for Wittmann July 1943-Aug 1944.
Wittmann lasted just 13 months. Perhaps someone could find pre-Kursk references to his career?
8O
Do you not then realize you're the one that only counted his kills while in a Tiger? You say that only his kill totals while in a Tiger were counted...which stands to reason, because you only counted the stuff while he was fighting in a Tiger tank!
Check his wikipedia page he was in the military since 1939.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 15:48

stg 44 wrote: Do you not then realize you're the one that only counted his kills while in a Tiger? You say that only his kill totals while in a Tiger were counted...which stands to reason, because you only counted the stuff while he was fighting in a Tiger tank!
Check his wikipedia page he was in the military since 1939.
KISS version:

Do you not then realize you're the one that only counted his kills while in a Tiger...........and then subtracted this Tiger score from his final total of kills to get his Stug kills.


His last award citation credits him with 138 kills.
I did count his Stug claims. What is clear is that in Agte his Stug 'claims' are recorded-they are just not used to compile his much vaunted kill total. It does not say '138 kills in just a Tiger'. You are struggling badly.
Find me another 'ace' who discards his (for example) Pz III kill total when he moved to a Pz IV or any Tiger ace who discarded all his kills in other tanks.
As for Wiki I will pass because I prefer Agte.
And beside all the above it is a proven fact his kill claims in Normandy is inflated by a factor of at least 2.
His claims are, at best, highly suspect.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 16:04

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Do you not then realize you're the one that only counted his kills while in a Tiger? You say that only his kill totals while in a Tiger were counted...which stands to reason, because you only counted the stuff while he was fighting in a Tiger tank!
Check his wikipedia page he was in the military since 1939.
KISS version:

Do you not then realize you're the one that only counted his kills while in a Tiger...........and then subtracted this Tiger score from his final total of kills to get his Stug kills.


His last award citation credits him with 138 kills.
I did count his Stug claims. What is clear is that in Agte his Stug 'claims' are recorded-they are just not used to compile his much vaunted kill total. It does not say '138 kills in just a Tiger'. You are struggling badly.
Find me another 'ace' who discards his (for example) Pz III kill total when he moved to a Pz IV or any Tiger ace who discarded all his kills in other tanks.
As for Wiki I will pass because I prefer Agte.
And beside all the above it is a proven fact his kill claims in Normandy is inflated by a factor of at least 2.
His claims are, at best, highly suspect.
You didn't cite a source for his official kill awards, you claimed your source was the adding you did of his kill totals from July 1943 to his death.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 16:19

stg 44 wrote:, you claimed your source was the adding you did of his kill totals from July 1943 to his death.
Using the detailed information(including 1943/44 citations with totals) in Agte which shows 117 kills July 1943-Jan 44. This 117 added to the Villers claims comes to the final award total of 138.
I repeat not one single pre-Tiger kill is listed in Wittmanns 138 total.

Note that there is a small discrepancy in the totals (c.3 kills) but this is not enough to allow for the Stug kills. They simply are not counted.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 16:39

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote:, you claimed your source was the adding you did of his kill totals from July 1943 to his death.
Using the detailed information(including 1943/44 citations with totals) in Agte which shows 117 kills July 1943-Jan 44. This 117 added to the Villers claims comes to the final award total of 138.
I repeat not one single pre-Tiger kill is listed in Wittmanns 138 total.

Note that there is a small discrepancy in the totals (c.3 kills) but this is not enough to allow for the Stug kills. They simply are not counted.
Again you are adding up only the kills included in the period he was in a Tiger. YOU are the one not including anything pre-Tiger. You haven't had a source yet making a claim on his entire total, you just keep adding up his kills in a Tiger and repeating that the Germans or Wittmann excluded those numbers, apparently not understanding that you haven't even found them; the one source you mention only is specifically listing his Tiger kills, nothing else. What new point do you think you're making here? Of course the StuG kills aren't included, because the time period that you are citing is after he transferred to a Tiger unit and YOU are only counting his kills in that period. Try finding a source that lists his pre-July 1943 kills.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 16:43

stg 44 wrote: Try finding a source that lists his pre-July 1943 kills.
I did. Agte. The same source that lists his Tiger kills
The Agte book clearly shows that Wittmann's claimed Stug kills are not counted.

Now can you please provide evidence for your claim that when a commander changes tank his previous score is reset to zero.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 25 Sep 2016 16:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 16:46

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Try finding a source that lists his pre-July 1943 kills.
I did. Agte. The same source that lists his Tiger kills.
The Agte book clearly shows that Wittmann's claimed Stug kills are not counted.

Now can you please provide evidence for your claim that when a commander changes tank his previous score is reset to zero.
Only by not listing anything before that. The point is the source you are using only is counting his Tiger kills, not that there was a reset in official records.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 17:21

stg 44 wrote:The point is the source you are using only is counting his Tiger kills, not that there was a reset in official records.
Rubbish.

Here are the words of SS War Correspondent Herbert Reinicker from Wittmann's interview of June 26 1944.

On 30 Jan 1944 he became the 380th soldier of the German Armed Forces to be decorated with the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with oak Leaves after raising his total in the east to 114 tanks destroyed................on that day of combat (June 13) SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann raised his total of victories to 138 enemy tanks...............

It is quite clear that the 'kills claims' are all over the place and bear little relation to reality when the poster boy for the system can't even get his own total anywhere near reality.

One correction from me Wittmann's Stug claims are in Kurowski and Simpson not Agte.

Please be so kind as to supply the names of all other German aces who gave up all their previous kills when being transfered to Tiger tanks

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 17:26

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote:The point is the source you are using only is counting his Tiger kills, not that there was a reset in official records.
Rubbish.

Here are the words of SS War Correspondent Herbert Reinicker from Wittmann's interview of June 26 1944.

On 30 Jan 1944 he became the 380th soldier of the German Armed Forces to be decorated with the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with oak Leaves after raising his total in the east to 114 tanks destroyed................on that day of combat (June 13) SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann raised his total of victories to 138 enemy tanks...............

It is quite clear that the 'kills claims' are all over the place and bear little relation to reality when the poster boy for the system can't even get his own total anywhere near reality.

One correction from me Wittmann's Stug claims are in Kurowski and Simpson not Agte.

Please be so kind as to supply the names of all other German aces who gave up all their previous kills when being transfered to Tiger tanks
Ah, 'enemy tanks', not SP guns, AT guns, artillery, soft skinned vehicles, etc. And that is probably confirmed, not claimed only.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 17:27

stg 44 wrote: The point is the source you are using only is counting his Tiger kills, not that there was a reset in official records.
Incorrect. All sources for Wittmann and his kills list a total 138. Not 138 'in a Tiger'. Your problem is you badly want to believe and can not face reality. I suspect Wittmann became the SS poster boy in the summer of 1943 and all his prior history is a postwar invention of slack-jawed admirers.
Perhaps you can link a wartime source/list that says '138 kills in a Tiger and X in a Stug/Pz III'.?
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 25 Sep 2016 17:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 17:29

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: The point is the source you are using only is counting his Tiger kills, not that there was a reset in official records.
Incorrect. All sources for Wittmann and his kills list a total 138. Not 138 'in a Tiger'. Your problem is you badly want to believe and can not face reality. I suspect Wittmann became the SS poster boy in the summer of 1943 and all his prior history is a postwar invention of slack-jawed admirers.
Perhaps you can link a list that says '138 kills in a Tiger and X in a Stug/Pz III'.?
Previously YOU said that you were only counting the 1943-44 kills.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 17:35

stg 44 wrote: Ah, 'enemy tanks', not SP guns, AT guns, artillery, soft skinned vehicles, etc. And that is probably confirmed, not claimed only.
Why yes 'confirmed'. That is why at this time a 50% reduction was applied to help reduce the crew over-claiming.
This would also be like the 20+ 'confirmed tank kills for Wittmann at Villers when the most he could have got was 10.
That is a very good confirmation system!
stg 44 wrote:Previously YOU said that you were only counting the 1943-44 kills.
Previously I said we can show all of his 138 kill total was gained July 1943-June 1944 and that not one single Wittmann kill for any other period is counted in his well known kill claim total. Thus he had no other kills!
I do not need to know the exact total of his Stug or any other kills because the fact is not one other kill appears on his list other than his Tiger kills. You are the one claiming kill total is reset when getting a new type of tank and we are waiting for you to show us another ace who reset his kill total and excluded previous kills when getting a new type of tank .
Better still get the Stug 'ace' list and show where Wittman appears on it.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Sleipnir11 » 26 Sep 2016 00:58

Michael Kenny wrote:
Sleipnir11 wrote:On 12 July 1941 Michael Wittmann destroyed six Soviet tanks with his StuG III Ausf. A in a single engagement. That earned him the Iron Cross second class, and was considered the starting point of his tank killing career.
Then why are these tanks not added to his total 'kill' claims? All his (inflated kills) date from his Tiger days. I wonder why that is?
Could this simply imply that the early StuGs were not considered as panzers but stricly as self-propelled artillery guns?

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