Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

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Stiltzkin
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Stiltzkin » 17 Aug 2016 16:26

Indeed. My agenda is to come as close to the truth as at all possible.
I would argue that this is almost impossible (a constantly improving approximation process perhaps yes), but that is the goal of research. It is also your subjective "truth".
I remember posting a comment on YT (I think it was a IL2-Cliffs vid) , stating that Hartmanns kills might have been not that high (after posting BA-MA material) and they threatened me with a ban. People have weird idols.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Harro » 17 Aug 2016 17:51

Stiltzkin wrote:This was not unique to the German side, Mortain is a good example (considering the majority of all Panthers were abandoned). Occassionally, burned out tanks were shelled (even by different units), leading to an increase of claimed "kills" (sometimes 4x as high).
A two hour air attack on Peipers column on the 18th of December 1944: "As usual with ground strafing missions, the pilots claims were excessively high - eightyeight vehicles destroyed, thirty-two of them panzers! The actual losses for Kampfgruppe Peiper were a dozen vehicles, among them two Panthers, one near Stavelot, another at Cheneux"." (Pallud: Battle of the Bulge - then and now, page 150)

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 17 Aug 2016 18:59

One of the biggest hoax on tank kills in WWII was pulled by the Soviets about the so called Dubosekovo Halt affair. Where Panfilov's 28 heroes supposedly stopped a full blown battalion strength panzer attack in 1941 and they sacrificed themselves to a man in the process. Riflemen in fox holes...stopping tanks...the ultimate heroic fantasy!

First came across this when I was all of 14 years old ! It made a powerful impression on me at that age. Then in my (1st year) freshman year.. in college, I included this episode along with Monte Cassino, in my piece in the Annual College magazine!

Many years later when I came to know what a bit of contrived and typically Soviet era Bull**** this was ..boy did I flip !

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Stiltzkin » 17 Aug 2016 19:05

A two hour air attack on Peipers column on the 18th of December 1944: "As usual with ground strafing missions, the pilots claims were excessively high - eightyeight vehicles destroyed, thirty-two of them panzers!
Yes, those were usually inflated. I actually wrote an article on the effectivness of tactical air-strikes on the TE site.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2016 20:21

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote: Where Panfilov's 28 heroes supposedly stopped a full blown battalion strength panzer attack in 1941 and they sacrificed themselves to a man in the process. Riflemen in fox holes...stopping tanks...the ultimate heroic fantasy!
Seems the standard 'Berlin defenders' story to me!

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 17 Aug 2016 21:07

Stiltzkin wrote:
Indeed. My agenda is to come as close to the truth as at all possible.
I would argue that this is almost impossible (a constantly improving approximation process perhaps yes)
It is by definition possible to get as close to the truth as possible.
It is also your subjective "truth".
Analysis and conclusions are subjective, but the truth itself isn't.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Sleipnir11 » 25 Sep 2016 02:43

On 12 July 1941 Michael Wittmann destroyed six Soviet tanks with his StuG III Ausf. A in a single engagement. That earned him the Iron Cross second class, and was considered the starting point of his tank killing career. I am wondering what those tanks were in this engagement: T-34, T-26, BT? In both Fedorowicz and Agate books there was no indication of the type. Only in the panzer ace web site that those were claimed to be T-34/76. Certainly T-26 and BTs were the most frequently encountered Soviet tanks during that time. But what about the possibility of T-34? Can it be real?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 25 Sep 2016 07:57

I think that's highly unlikely, given that a Stug A sported the rather unimpressive 75mm howitzer. So unless someone can pony up some evidence other than the Panzer Ace website I'd call baloney.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Sleipnir11 » 25 Sep 2016 08:36

Urmel wrote:I think that's highly unlikely, given that a Stug A sported the rather unimpressive 75mm howitzer. So unless someone can pony up some evidence other than the Panzer Ace website I'd call baloney.
In a previous thread it was said that early StuG IIIs (A/B/C/D/E) with short barreled 7.5 cm StuK 37 L/24 were able to deal with Soviet heavy/medium tanks at a very good exchange rate: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 90#p986090
Question is has there been any record on the type of tanks Wittmann encountered and destroyed during 12 July 1941?

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Urmel
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 25 Sep 2016 08:48

1) I don't believe the claims
2) The more specific report is from early 1942. I don't know when the improved hollow-charge rounds were introduced and/or reached the frontline, but it is possible that this has a role to play. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61084
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Sep 2016 12:47

Sleipnir11 wrote:On 12 July 1941 Michael Wittmann destroyed six Soviet tanks with his StuG III Ausf. A in a single engagement. That earned him the Iron Cross second class, and was considered the starting point of his tank killing career. I am wondering what those tanks were in this engagement: T-34, T-26, BT? In both Fedorowicz and Agate books there was no indication of the type. Only in the panzer ace web site that those were claimed to be T-34/76. Certainly T-26 and BTs were the most frequently encountered Soviet tanks during that time. But what about the possibility of T-34? Can it be real?
T-34s (in general) were more common during OP Typhoon. Before that it was overwhelmingly the light models.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 25 Sep 2016 14:18

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=15

This is a useful thread. There were KVs, T34s, T26s ...all sorts making up the Soviet armour strength on 22 June 1941...

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 14:46

Sleipnir11 wrote:On 12 July 1941 Michael Wittmann destroyed six Soviet tanks with his StuG III Ausf. A in a single engagement. That earned him the Iron Cross second class, and was considered the starting point of his tank killing career.
Then why are these tanks not added to his total 'kill' claims? All his (inflated kills) date from his Tiger days. I wonder why that is?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by stg 44 » 25 Sep 2016 14:52

Michael Kenny wrote:
Sleipnir11 wrote:On 12 July 1941 Michael Wittmann destroyed six Soviet tanks with his StuG III Ausf. A in a single engagement. That earned him the Iron Cross second class, and was considered the starting point of his tank killing career.
Then why are these tanks not added to his total 'kill' claims? All his (inflated kills) date from his Tiger days. I wonder why that is?
They were added to his kill totals. Why do you think all this awarded kills came from his time in the Tiger? Or is this you just strawmanning yet again? :roll:

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Sep 2016 15:13

stg 44 wrote: They were added to his kill totals. Why do you think all this awarded kills came from his time in the Tiger? Or is this you just strawmanning yet again?
As a matter of fact every single one of his 135-ish score (depending on source) is a Tiger kill-every single one.


http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1321516
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 25 Sep 2016 15:16, edited 1 time in total.

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