Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

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Panther1
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Panther1 » 15 Jan 2016 10:17

Well after ploughing through the arguments/discussions concerning the feats of Michael Wittmann, could I please ask and perhaps get a sensible reply to a simple question. Is it so important to revile and defile the memory of one man who regardless of his initial views and beliefs, fought for his friends and country. At the end when this encounter occurred most if not all German soldiers, be they SS, Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, or Kriegsmarine were fighting for their families and friends, all Nazi ideology had long since been consigned to the bin of history. And please Oh please do not continue with this line that the Allies, including the Soviets, did not elaborate on their scores, or even perhaps lie about what actually happened during that terrible war. As for me, I give full praise to any soldier, regardless if they fought for one side or the other, who fought to the end for their own ideas and loved ones. So if people talk about People like Joachim Peiper, Patton, Wittmann, Easy Company, Panzer-Meyer, or the other hundreds of heroes who fought that bloody war, let them talk in the positive rather than the negative. Why you say because only these people know what really happened during those days, not some crap written by the propaganda department from either side. These people died doing their duty to the best of their ability, and we who remain have NO right to criticize, or cast dispersions on whatever happened. So lets look at what really happened and marvel at the heroism shown by both sides, let these people lie in their graves in peace.

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Urmel
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 15 Jan 2016 10:28

You really need to read up on your history.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 19 Jan 2016 05:10

Panther1 why don't you get it that "history" has become a tool of politics ? The Germans lost the war and were destroyed as a nation in the aftermath. The victors laid down the rules of survival in post war Germany. German post war governments forbade any formal discussion or publication that talked about the brave deeds of the German soldiers in a positive light.

Subsequent generations of German youth were brought up to be ashamed of being German. They were indoctrinated to hate and ridicule their past.

The inevitable happened. Icons like Wittmann, Peiper et al were appropriated by the fringe extremist groups since the mainline German society disowned them. So these debates appear to become heated battles between logical, fact seeking people and fanatical skin heads.

This further reinforces the myth that the German heroes were paper tigers being propped up by neo nazis. In the process, some pseudo historians make a full time career out of trashing any and every act of valour on the German side.

These pseudo historians would have you believe the following "history" :
A country arose from the post versailles ruins, occupied most of Europe and tracts of North Africa, defended their gains against the combined might of the mammoth economies of their enemies....while their leaders were madmen, their generals were ordinary and their soldiers chest thumping , vain glorious caricatures like Wittmann, Peiper and Meyer are made out to be here.


If you add up all the "historical" arguments in this thread and others on Rommel, Peiper, Skorzeny et al , you would go away with the impression that Germany's victories and military achievements were like a "fixed" football match !

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Jan 2016 05:23

I can not be held responsible for your shattered dreams. The blame lies with the man who allowed you to be dazzled by his inflated kill claims. Blame Wittmann for your predicament.

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Harro
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Harro » 19 Jan 2016 09:00

Panther1 wrote:let them talk in the positive rather than the negative.
How about objective?

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Urmel
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 19 Jan 2016 16:40

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:Subsequent generations of German youth were brought up to be ashamed of being German. They were indoctrinated to hate and ridicule their past.
Where were you educated then? Please name the Grundschule and Gymnasium and Universitaet you went to.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Harro
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Harro » 19 Jan 2016 20:10

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:The Germans lost the war and were destroyed as a nation in the aftermath.
Yeah, the Wirtschaftswunder was a complete failure.
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:German post war governments forbade any formal discussion or publication that talked about the brave deeds of the German soldiers in a positive light.
Exactly how did people like Kurt Meyer and Paul Hauser publish their books?

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Urmel
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 19 Jan 2016 20:27

Now now Harro, please don't interrupt the hug that Sandeep is giving Panther1, who clearly needs it. Poor lads, at least they have each other for comfort.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 19 Jan 2016 20:28

Harro wrote: Exactly how did people like Kurt Meyer and Paul Hauser publish their books?
I well remember having awful anti-German German propaganda rammed down my throat each time I picked up a Landserheft.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 19 Jan 2016 21:06

Heavens,

I didn't realise my 1952 English translation of Panzer Leader was so subversive!

Regards

Tom

Shermaninterest
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Shermaninterest » 02 Mar 2016 05:17

Facinating thread. Facinating maps and pictures.

Earlier in the thread somebody mentioned that 4? intact British tanks were towed away by the Germans. Are the positions known where the vehicles were found? Were these tanks abandoned during the Wittmann action or later?

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Urmel
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Urmel » 02 Mar 2016 07:39

Tom from Cornwall wrote:Heavens,

I didn't realise my 1952 English translation of Panzer Leader was so subversive!

Regards

Tom
Top shelf material.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 02 Mar 2016 21:50

Shermaninterest wrote:Facinating thread. Facinating maps and pictures.

Earlier in the thread somebody mentioned that 4? intact British tanks were towed away by the Germans. Are the positions known where the vehicles were found? Were these tanks abandoned during the Wittmann action or later?
1 Cromwell CS was taken away and joined the ranks of 12th SS. Werncke (Lehr) says he drove one away and has the photo to prove it. 1 Firefly was driven away and examined. That is for certain. In a blurry photo taken at Pt 213 an 'extra' Cromwell is seen parked behind the knocked out Firefly Alla Keefek. This Cromwell is in no other photos and thus must have been driven off before the more famous set of pics taken at Pt 213. 3 Firefly, 2 Stuart, 1 Sherman OP 6 Cromwell (1 an OP tank) were hit (total 12) and penetrated. The rest of the photographed Cromwells (7) seem to have been simply abandoned by the crews and most set on fire first. The number of known wrecks does not match the number given as losses in 4th CLY War Diary and the Regiment is known not to have been at full strength on 13/6/44. Some things will never be known and a 100% accurate account is not yet on the horizon. 3 tanks (2 Crom, 1 M4) were artillery OP tanks and thus were not part of 4th CLY and thus should not be included in a Regimental loss count but did the Diary writer just lump them all together?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Stiltzkin » 16 Aug 2016 22:10

I would always apply the given methodology the OKH used for their own forces (i.e 30-50% for ground, 50% for air). The Oberkommando did not believe their own troops. :lol:
Nevertheless, Wittman knocked out a lot of tanks, even if we recalculate the over-inflated figures. He surely destroyed more tanks than Rudel. These stories were good for the News Reels, "poster boys of the Reich".

This was not unique to the German side, Mortain is a good example (considering the majority of all Panthers were abandoned). Occassionally, burned out tanks were shelled (even by different units), leading to an increase of claimed "kills" (sometimes 4x as high).

When it comes to such stories, people are rarely objective. Everyone has an agenda, some will not recognize his feats, others will glorify them to oblivion and won't accept the debunking of such mythical claims (sacrilege).

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 17 Aug 2016 16:12

Stiltzkin wrote:Everyone has an agenda
Indeed. My agenda is to come as close to the truth as at all possible.

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