Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

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Marcus
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Marcus » 08 Sep 2013 08:25

A post by dobromeister using civil terms for Russian was removed.

/Marcus

dobromeister
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by dobromeister » 08 Sep 2013 08:31

Take II
Michael Kenny wrote:Now it may be said this is just one example of an error but it could just as easily be said that when we can check losses (as we normally can for Normandy) these high scorers are caught out.
Nothing's dead accurate, doubly so in the heat of combat or conflict in general, let's get that out of the way as that part is a given. But as was stated earlier, if you don't know about the German penchant for accounting with a demand for accuracy, you know little about things German or Prussian. In that regard, the British and Americans weren't terribly unreasonable either, at least for the most part. Let's say as opposed to the Soviets where everything - and I mean everything - was a poke in the dark and subject to propaganda-serving inflation.

Wittmann was an ace like few others, why dance and twirl around the obvious? The Allies and Russians had few gunners who came close to matching his celebrated numbers. If you can't admit this, please provide his British or American or Russian counterparts and their glowing kill rates. [And if Soviet, I would like to know what validity meter you're using.]

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Harro
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Harro » 08 Sep 2013 08:54

"dobromeister", the fact that no American British or Russian gunner came close to these inflated figures is something most participants in this discussion could not care less about, as the topic is Wittmann's kill claims and Michael Kenny proved that his tally is way to high. The "German penchant for accounting with a demand for accuracy" - if not grossly overrated anyway - clearly does not apply to the way the Waffen-SS inflated the kill rate of Wittmann.

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Marcus
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Marcus » 08 Sep 2013 08:55

Please stay on topic, i.e. the claims by Wittmann, not Allied or other Axis soldiers.

/Marcus

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by dobromeister » 08 Sep 2013 10:09

Harro wrote:"dobromeister", the fact that no American British or Russian gunner came close to these inflated figures is something most participants in this discussion could not care less about, as the topic is Wittmann's kill claims and Michael Kenny proved that his tally is way to high. The "German penchant for accounting with a demand for accuracy" - if not grossly overrated anyway - clearly does not apply to the way the Waffen-SS inflated the kill rate of Wittmann.
I would love to debate this subject with you my friend, but Marcus the Swedish Commissar enjoys nipping at my heels when I express my mind like a good but unwelcome Yankee. Everything I say he sits in judgment of, like the pontificating shadow of Stalin itself [READ: WAR CRIMES ???}, striking 90% of what I say down. NYET! NYET! NYET! Hopefully you will see this before he trashes this post for being "off topic" but again.

And to think, the women there are so beautiful. 8O

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Harro
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Harro » 08 Sep 2013 13:04

Grow up

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by dobromeister » 08 Sep 2013 13:28

Harro wrote:Grow up
You lose me with your terse and silly comment. Moreover, who exactly needs growing up when one is the subject of constant censure? Or do you applaud that in Holland likewise?

May I ask you why are you so seemingly obsessed with proving Wittmann's numbers so off kilter? What is the point exactly? Are you trying to indicate you can never trust those dastardly SS types, or their crooked bookkeepers? :milwink:

I'll repeat, Wittmann was a first class, high kill warrior. If there were spurious warriors being dreamed up, it wasn't coming from the Wehrmacht or W-SS, but from their Soviet counterparts (along with plenty of poorly researched, modern-day "accountings" high and low). In the Soviet Union, especially under Stalin, everything was subject to invention and reinvention, often on a whim. It was crazy.

But please don't tell me Wittmann was some SS myth. I don't buy it.

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Harro
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Harro » 08 Sep 2013 13:44

My "grow up" comment is aimed at the fact that you're (supposedly) a new forum member but have already made various childish remarks about other forum members and the founder and administrator of this forum. If you don't like how this forum is moderated then feel free to leave.
dobromeister wrote:May I ask you why are you so seemingly obsessed with proving Wittmann's numbers so off kilter?
Which obsession? My reply to your silly comments on Michael Kenny was my first post in this topic.
dobromeister wrote:What is the point exactly? Are you trying to indicate you can never trust those dastardly SS types, or their crooked bookkeepers? :milwink:
Building straw men, arn't you?
dobromeister wrote:But please don't tell me Wittmann was some SS myth. I don't buy it.
Michael Kenny gave you plenty of evidence that proves that Wittmann's kille claims were ficticious. You'll have to bring in evidence to prove him wrong, no just general statements about German bookkeeping.
Last edited by Harro on 08 Sep 2013 15:05, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Sep 2013 14:03

I am afraid this thread has lately become a magnet for the deluded believers.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Sep 2013 14:10

Edit:
removed my post
No point in replying to a deluded troll.
.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 08 Sep 2013 23:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Sep 2013 23:55

Edit.
Removed post to stop feeding the troll
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 09 Sep 2013 00:00, edited 1 time in total.

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BillHermann
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by BillHermann » 09 Sep 2013 00:32

I think you fail to understand that many of these old time forum members are a wealth of knowledge in the subject you say you are interested in.

Being obnoxious and offensive to these educated members will only make you look ridiculous.

Rob - wssob2
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 09 Sep 2013 00:42

But please don't tell me Wittmann was some SS myth. I don't buy it.
Dobromeister, FYI - Harro is frankly the world's leading expert on the LSSAH's Reconnaissance Section, a guy fluent in German who has spent a decade corresponding with SS veterans, having a beer with SS veterans, and studying the surviving primary-source material on the unit. - in addition to reading umteen-million books on WWII and corresponding with WWII historians on this thread and offline.

He is more than qualified to tell you what is part of the SS myth and what isn't.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by Michael Kenny » 09 Sep 2013 00:55

There is no point in trying to reason with him because he is not in the least interested in anything more than settling old scores.
A fake ID and he joined with with the sole aim of casing trouble.
I am pretty sure I know which USA based poster it is as well................

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

Post by David Thompson » 09 Sep 2013 01:01

An assortment of fact-free opinion posts from dobromeister, which added nothing of informational value to the topic, were removed by this moderator.

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