Division "HG" at Salerno

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Richard Anderson
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Feb 2022 21:53

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
17 Feb 2022 21:43
I get a slight feeling that the HG Div was a bit of a mess at Salerno......

Thanks for the informations. Im currently downloading T315 R827 hoping that it contains Lagekarten with some of the HG units...
Indeed, it was a mess, but sadly all those pages copied at NARA are now a Continent away from me. :cry: The division as a whole was badly understrength after its losses in Tunisia and Sicily, as mentioned, the two Panzergrenadier "regiments" were actually only strong battalions and the rest of the division was brought up to strength by the attachment of various Heer and non-HG Luftwaffe units.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Westphalia1812
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by Westphalia1812 » 17 Feb 2022 22:08

Richard Anderson wrote:
17 Feb 2022 21:53
Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
17 Feb 2022 21:43
I get a slight feeling that the HG Div was a bit of a mess at Salerno......

Thanks for the informations. Im currently downloading T315 R827 hoping that it contains Lagekarten with some of the HG units...
Indeed, it was a mess, but sadly all those pages copied at NARA are now a Continent away from me. :cry: The division as a whole was badly understrength after its losses in Tunisia and Sicily, as mentioned, the two Panzergrenadier "regiments" were actually only strong battalions and the rest of the division was brought up to strength by the attachment of various Heer and non-HG Luftwaffe units.
It seems that the div never really got a needed rest before March 1944 and its performance was also pretty mixed, ranging from very inept (Gela) to satisfactory at Anzio. I guess it was one of those units that cannot be called outstanding but one that still was considered vital for that theatre...

Westphalia1812
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by Westphalia1812 » 17 Feb 2022 22:15

GF84 wrote:
24 Mar 2008 18:15
Peter H wrote: Here's a photo of elements engaged near Salerno.Some on left wear cammo,some on right in tropical uniform.


have you got info about this photo? (Source, location, etc...).


Thanks.
When looking at the daily orders the HG div (and attached elmts) fought mostly north - northwest of Salerno at Vietri, Dragonea and Castella di Arechi. Interestingly it was supposed to reach Tusciano and link up with the main part of 16.PzDiv but that doesn't seem to have happened.
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Westphalia1812
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by Westphalia1812 » 17 Feb 2022 22:19

Could height 419 be the Dragonea hill?

MHPG12
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by MHPG12 » 25 Mar 2022 19:49

Thank you for this information. for some reason, I did not get a notification. Reading Osprey's 'Salerno 1943' states that KG Fitz attacked Dragone from Cava on 13 Sept. Now looking at the documents I do not see a KG Fitz. He was apparently put in charge of I Battalion Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 1 "Hermann Göring" in September. The book has no footnotes to see where he got Fitz from.
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by MHPG12 » 25 Mar 2022 19:51

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
17 Feb 2022 22:19
Could height 419 be the Dragonea hill?
Possibly would have to compare 43 maps to see what was used to ID the hill.

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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by MHPG12 » 25 Mar 2022 20:04

Richard Anderson wrote:
17 Feb 2022 20:15
Some of the locations I have found, apparently based on British PW interrogation, were as of 9 September (also see my posts as "richto90" from earlier in this thread):

II./Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment Herman Göring 1 at Cava de Tirreni on the Vietri sul Mare-Nocera Road. PGR HG 1 was only present as the Regiments-Stab and Regiments-Einheiten and the II. Batallion, which was formerly the Feldersatz Batallion HG and was motorized. Ist (O/B/U/M) was 41/4/258/985. III. Batallion and 13. and 14. Kp. did not exist, 9. Kp had six towed 15cm sIG (mot), 10. Kp. had four 15cm sIG (Sfl), 11. Kp. was supposed to be sPak (Sfl) but evidently had no guns? The battalion had three sPak (mot). Thus, this is part of KG Haas.

Aufklärungs-Abteilung Herman Göring at Chiunzi Pass on the Maiori Road. Also KG Haas. It consisted of:
1. Kp. (PSW) nine 2cm PSW
2. Kp. (PSW) not operational
3. Kp. (Inf. (mot))
4. Kp. (Inf. (mot)) not operational
5. Kp. (Inf. (SPW) three sPak
6. Kp. (Pak (Sfl) reforming, one Sfl in repair

Panzer-Grenadier Batallion Herman Göring (?) at Cava di Tirreni. The only possibility for this unit is I./Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment Herman Göring 2 of the division reserve KG v. Corvin, which went to KG Haas the night of 11/12 September. Otherwise, PGR HG 2 was present only as the Regiments-Stab and Regiments-Einheiten and the I. Batallion, which was at least partly equipped with SPW. Ist was 26/5/173/705. Neither the II. Batallion (which was planned to be reformed) or III. Batallion existed, nor did a 13. or 15. Kp. 9. Kp. had six towed 15cm sIG (mot), 10. Kp. had four 15cm sIG (Sfl), 11. Kp. had four sPak (Sfl), of which three were operational. The battalion had three sPak (mot) and three 7.5cm KwK auf SPW.

IIRC, Batallion Reggio (24/4/133/824) was south of Naples defending the Amalfi coast and Sorrento from the advance of Darby's Rangers. KG Maucke was in support of KG Haas to the north and east, along with Steuer's Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 129, extending east to the hills around Sant Angelo and Piegolelle.

Elements of 1. FJD joined the division c. 10/11 September and were organized as KG Becker.

So KG Haass was most likely the KG in the area at this time(am I understanding this correctly)? Photos show up in Vietri of what many think to be III. 1FJR (KG Becker?) in jump smocks and marching boots, unless the Pz Grnd Rgt. were also equipped like this? On page 1 of this thread the 1st photo shows what looks to be PzGrnd in SS smocks and tropical uniforms. I know 16 Pz (Heer) had observation posts in the area which could account for the units seen in Heer tropical uniforms.
273001683_643867470096757_673743708488800456_n.jpg

Here is a quote from the below article-
"The author would like to share an incident concerning the battle at Dragone with others. It came during the counter-attack made by the Commando. A group of four men, including two walking-wounded, found themselves in a narrow cobbled alley which passed for the main street of the hamlet and saw two German paratroopers, with weapons slung across their backs, attempting to carry a wounded comrade to safety. The No. 2 boys knew that they were paratroopers because of the bulbous trousers and distinctive, rimless helmets. The paratroopers turned and found themselves looking at our four with weapons pointing in their direction. The N.C.O. leading our group said: ‘No firing lads!’ and motioned with his arm for the Germans to keep going and get their wounded man out of there. One paratrooper raised his arm in acknowledgement and they vanished around the corner of the alley. It seemed to this author that, at that moment, humanity had arrived to reassert itself in his world."
http://www.commandoveterans.org/Salerno ... ILtpIvhx64

At this point you would probably have to find an order dating 12- 13 September specifically outlining units used for the attack. Conjecture- but it very well could of been a mixed KG from various KG elements ready at Cava. Cava seems to be the staging point for HG operations in the first week of Op Avalanche.

In the above article- he mentions Grenadiers and Paratroopers, now this could be post war injections or a indication of both types of units being present. Given the structure of HG at the time and the very nature of the German KG could this be plausible?
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by MHPG12 » 26 Mar 2022 23:26

Here is an account from a Captain who was KIA on 9th September.

"Late on the 9th the 2nd Battalion 1st Panzer Grenadier Regiment 'Herman Göring' inland at Cava de Tirreni on the Vietri sul Mare - Nocera road, and the Herman Göring Reconnaissance Battalion at the Chiunzi Pass on the Maiori road came into action and resulted in deadlock between small forces. At Cava di Tirreni the Herman Göring Panzer Grenadier Battalion vigorously engaged the 2nd and the Royal Marine Commandos, which were supported by the destroyer HMS Nubian. Towards evening 6th Lincolnshires arrived, tipping the scales, and the action died down."

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/th ... ost-867513

Also from ww2talk

States 236 and 419 were in a different location which is interesting it is in HG records.

"Few battles (I think between 12nd-15th sept.) were fought also in the extreme eastern Giovi hills ( near Pontecagnano, northern where Hampshire landed on 9th sept. and where fought against I/PzGren 64 in Magazzeno): Hill 236, south of S.Nicola, and Hill 419, east of Commandos hill.
Regards from Operation Avalanche bridghead (Salerno), Matteo."

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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by Westphalia1812 » 28 Mar 2022 19:21

MHPG12 wrote:
25 Mar 2022 20:04



Here is a quote from the below article-
"The author would like to share an incident concerning the battle at Dragone with others. It came during the counter-attack made by the Commando. A group of four men, including two walking-wounded, found themselves in a narrow cobbled alley which passed for the main street of the hamlet and saw two German paratroopers, with weapons slung across their backs, attempting to carry a wounded comrade to safety. The No. 2 boys knew that they were paratroopers because of the bulbous trousers and distinctive, rimless helmets. The paratroopers turned and found themselves looking at our four with weapons pointing in their direction. The N.C.O. leading our group said: ‘No firing lads!’ and motioned with his arm for the Germans to keep going and get their wounded man out of there. One paratrooper raised his arm in acknowledgement and they vanished around the corner of the alley. It seemed to this author that, at that moment, humanity had arrived to reassert itself in his world."
http://www.commandoveterans.org/Salerno ... ILtpIvhx64

At this point you would probably have to find an order dating 12- 13 September specifically outlining units used for the attack. Conjecture- but it very well could of been a mixed KG from various KG elements ready at Cava. Cava seems to be the staging point for HG operations in the first week of Op Avalanche.

In the above article- he mentions Grenadiers and Paratroopers, now this could be post war injections or a indication of both types of units being present. Given the structure of HG at the time and the very nature of the German KG could this be plausible?
HG proved to be pretty a rather vicious formation later¹ in 1944 (using POWs as human shields at Cisterna, destroying several villages in spring and summer 1944) so I guess that these were men from III./Fj.Rgt.1. I could be wrong of course...

¹Also in 1943 during the four days uprising between Caserta and Naples

GF84
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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by GF84 » 10 Aug 2022 08:41

Westphalia1812 wrote:
17 Feb 2022 22:19
Could height 419 be the Dragonea hill?
No, it's east of Salerno

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Re: Division "HG" at Salerno

Post by GF84 » 10 Aug 2022 09:15

MHPG12 wrote:
13 Feb 2022 17:46
I am trying to figure out the units within the HG and or attached that opposed 41 Rm Commando and 2 Commando from 9-12 Sep 43 around Dragonea, Cava, Vietri, La Molina Pass area.
In that area KG Haas had only II./PzGrenRgt 1 HG on 9-10 Sept 43.
Then, on 11 Sept, two companies from III./PzGrenRgt 115 were attached to it.

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