Waffen-SS in Africa?

Lannes · Post by **Lannes** » 19 Jan 2008 21:29

Folks,
I think the real indicator for the intention to ship any unit to N. Africa would be if the men went through the "Tropentuchtigkeit" test, which I understand was to check their resistance to tropical disease etc. If that's what the SS men in the interviews say, it's good support that at least the possibility was taken seriously.
Aris Kosionidis

WEISWEILER · Post by **WEISWEILER** » 20 Jan 2008 12:21

Interesting. Thanks.

From this cover, one has to presume that Africa Waffen-SS uniforms have been a fact. Found the book cover on http://www.amazon.com/Afrikakorps-Luftw ... 0764319205.

/W

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 20 Jan 2008 12:49

WEISWEILER wrote:From this cover, one has to presume that Africa Waffen-SS uniforms have been a fact. Found the book cover on http://www.amazon.com/Afrikakorps-Luftw ... 0764319205.

The cover clearly states that it is about the tropical uniform, not any specific Africa uniform.

/Marcus

Rob - wssob2 · Post by **Rob - wssob2** » 20 Jan 2008 14:56

No Waffen-SS units were deployed to North Africa. And tropical uniforms are useful in hot climates such as southern Europe, the Cacausus, etc.

WEISWEILER · Post by **WEISWEILER** » 20 Jan 2008 18:00

Rob - wssob2 wrote:No Waffen-SS units were deployed to North Africa. And tropical uniforms are useful in hot climates such as southern Europe, the Cacausus, etc.

Thanks for synthesising.

However, the initial question has evolved to: Did the high command plan the Waffen-SS to be deployed, and if so, what evidence is there to make that statement reasonable?

As far as I can see, the only indication we have is that indeed the plans have existed, as Christoph Awender and other members have stated: interviews with several veterans, special filters on Tigers, specific training of troops... Indications are fitting within certain timeframes of factual history. And there is a certain strategical logic in the whole of the idea, that matches with history.

An extra argument: until now, we have not seen any evidence for the opposite (= the plans were never made), neither indications.

/W

Luft300 · Post by **Luft300** » 23 Jan 2008 21:32

I have a copy of this book in my library and it shows pretty much German WWII Tropical Uniforms, Headgear, etc. There is a section in the uniforms and the caps that show two different models of the Sahariana jacket, as well as a field cap and a very rare Waffen-SS enlisted tropical overseas cap with AUTUMN CAMOUFLAGED insignia, although the author did not point it out. This is extremely rare insignia. Out of the four pieces of camouflaged cap insignia, the most common (as chicken lips) piece is the bright-green summer skull, which sells for almost $2,000. The autumn camouflaged pair of cap insignia is even more difficult to come by, let alone actually on a cap!

Maybe if the German High Command knew there was more oil in Iraq and Iran than in Russia, they would have put more effort into the African Campaign. But we've seen no strategy on the part of Hitler or the High Command to create a giant pincher movement coming up into Southern Russia from the Middle East. Some of those air and oil filters mounted on Tiger tanks could have been for the dry and dusty Russian steppes as well. There were a few Tigers sent to Africa, but once again, not enough to make a significant difference. I believe that if the Germans were serious about North Africa, they would have at all costs taken out Malta and every British naval unit in the Mediterranean Sea. Just my opinion based upon a lot of reading through the years. Oh, and for those who say that Rommel didn't want the Waffen-SS in Africa... he would have taken anybody he could have gotten his hands on! He and Sepp Dietrich got along just fine in Normandy!

Luft300

WEISWEILER · Post by **WEISWEILER** » 24 Jan 2008 11:38

Many thanks, Luft.

"the Sahariana jacket, as well as a field cap and a very rare Waffen-SS enlisted tropical overseas cap with AUTUMN CAMOUFLAGED insignia"

Can you post a scan?

The uniform debate is most interesting.

/W

Luft300 · Post by **Luft300** » 25 Jan 2008 03:04

Here is a photo of the Waffen-SS enlisted tropical overseas cap with the autumn camouflaged insignia on it.

WEISWEILER · Post by **WEISWEILER** » 25 Jan 2008 08:15

Impressive.

And it does say 'overseas'?

/W

Luft300 · Post by **Luft300** » 25 Jan 2008 15:55

No, overseas is the style of cap... there are different names for it but most of refer this style as overseas.

Luft300

WEISWEILER · Post by **WEISWEILER** » 25 Jan 2008 19:01

Thanks, you did a great effort!

Indeed the cap looks fit to be shipped overseas. I guess that the tissue as well as the design look like as off for the lightest possible conditions, what would one make think about the Sahara.

We need evidence that this cap and similar stuff, was actually recorded as 'for overseas use'. Our administrator, in his post here above, did underline the use of 'Tropical' in the header of the book. The author could have included tropical designs whithout they were realy made for or used in Africa. That is very relevant to this research, however.

/W

Dan Reinbold's Das Reich website (http://www.dasreich.ca/uniforms.html) also makes mention of automn camo'ed insignia, with photo. Though the eagle and the skull there are contrasting brown, while here they look almost as black as the fields do. In fact, I didn't recognised them at first. Just an optic difference because of photographical conditions, or would it be particular?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 25 Jan 2008 19:12

WEISWEILER wrote:We need evidence that this cap and similar stuff, was actually recorded as 'for overseas use'.

Overseas cap is simply what it is called.

For example:

Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrison_cap wrote:A garrison cap, wedge cap, flight cap, side cap, forage cap, or overseas cap is a foldable cap with straight sides and a creased or hollow crown sloping to the back where it is parted.

/Marcus

WEISWEILER · Post by **WEISWEILER** » 25 Jan 2008 19:22

I see. Many thanks!

/W

Luft300 · Post by **Luft300** » 25 Jan 2008 21:11

Here is an example of the camouflaged skull in summer colors. Originally these were manufactured for applying them onto the camouflaged field caps but after 15 days the order was rescinded and no insignia was allowed on the camouflaged field caps. The Waffen-SS enlisted tropical overseas cap pictured above was found at the end of the war in a Waffen-SS depot in Linz, Austria. It had been manufactured by Schmid & Menner using slave labor from the nearby Mathausen Concentration Camp. This is the only other time this rare camouflaged insignia has been known to be used. The tropical overseas caps would normally have sported the tropical insignia, which is a tan or sand color. The autumn camouflaged insignia was a dark-brown on black backing.

This example of two green camouflaged skulls on a roll courtesy of B&S Militaria.

Luft300

WEISWEILER · Post by **WEISWEILER** » 26 Jan 2008 09:57

Lannes wrote:Folks,
I think the real indicator for the intention to ship any unit to N. Africa would be if the men went through the "Tropentuchtigkeit" test, which I understand was to check their resistance to tropical disease etc. If that's what the SS men in the interviews say, it's good support that at least the possibility was taken seriously.
Aris Kosionidis

Thanks again, Aris.

Google didn't come up with more data about the interesting point you are making (or Tropentüchtigkeit in general), as far as I could see. I also took a look in my biography of German publications. No results yet.

/W

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Waffen-SS in Africa?

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