These features fit in the known history timeframe, which tells about an LSSAH refitting and upgrading period in France between July 1942 and January 1943. Also, Tigers where attached in that time.
"LSSAH took part in Unternehmen Barbarossa (the invasion of the Soviet Union) attached to Heeresgruppe Süd and saw action at Kiev and Rostov. It was transferred to France for refitting 1942 and was upgraded to a Panzergrenadier-DIvision. It returned to the Eastern front 1943 and fought at Kharkov and Kursk." (AH Factbook)
"The LSSAH spent the remainder of 1942 refitting as a panzergrenadier division. Thanks to the efforts of the Reichsführer-SS, along with SS-Obergruppenführer Paul Hausser, the SS-Panzerkorps commander, the four SS panzergrenadier divisions (LSSAH, Wiking, Das Reich and Totenkopf) were to be formed with a full regiment of tanks rather than only an Abteilung. This meant that the SS Panzergrenadier divisions were full-strength Panzer divisions in all but name. Also, the division received nine Tiger 1 tanks, and these were formed into 13.(schwere)Kompanie/SS-Panzer-Regiment 1. The collapse of the front around Stalingrad and the encirclement of the 6.Armee meant that the entire eastern front was close to collapse. Generalfeldmarschall Erich von Manstein, commander of Army Group Don, requested reinforcements to halt the Soviet attack near Kharkov. The SS-Panzerkorps was ordered east to join Manstein's forces. Arriving at the front in late January 1943, the LSSAH was thrown into the line [...]." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_SS_Div ... olf_Hitler)
If only there could be written sources or other evidence...
Thanks for the excellent comments, everyone.
/W
Waffen-SS in Africa?
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Harro
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Actually I was talking about refitting of the Leibstandarte in Metz - August 1940 to March 1941 - before their transfer to the Balkan for Unternehmen Merita (April 1941).WEISWEILER wrote:These features fit in the known history timeframe, which tells about an LSSAH refitting and upgrading period in France between July 1942 and January 1943. Also, Tigers where attached in that time.
Rest and refitting of the Leibstandarte in 1942 took place in Normandy.
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Bergmolch
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WEISWEILER
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Actual intervention plans could have been prepared in separated stages of the war.
For now we have the following indications, left alone their proposed time frame(s):
- issued tropical uniforms
- LSSAH
- training on Africa conditions
- Panzer adapted to African conditions
And these LSSAH time frames:
- pre-Balkan operation 1941
- in between Russia operations 1942- early '43
/W
For now we have the following indications, left alone their proposed time frame(s):
- issued tropical uniforms
- LSSAH
- training on Africa conditions
- Panzer adapted to African conditions
And these LSSAH time frames:
- pre-Balkan operation 1941
- in between Russia operations 1942- early '43
/W
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Luft300
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Weisweiler,
FIrst of all the two pictures you posted with SS men wearing tropical uniforms are NOT with the Tunis unit mentioned. As members of the Sicherheitsdienst, these men would NOT have been wearing the runic collar tabs, but BLANK collar tabs.
For Adolf Hitler the North Afrika campaign was a side show. He sent Rommel and the hastily made up DAK to North Afrika to bail the Italians out (again) and to tie down as many British and Commonwealth troops as possible. As long as Rommel was winning and causing the Allies many headaches, Hitler was happy. But the REAL theater of concern was against the Soviet Union. That is where he needed the bulk of his forces, as well as elite units, e.g. the Waffen-SS, Grossdeutschland, etc. Hitler wasn't going to send the cream of his forces to Afrika to be wasted in a side show. The closest the Waffen-SS came to Afrika was Italy and Greece. These were the primary places and areas where the Waffen-SS wore tropical clothing. The pictures you posted showed the Italian Sahariana style. There was also a German style tropical uniform, similar to the DAK uniforms but in more of a sand color. In fact in Angolia's CLOTH INSIGNIA OF THE SS there are two brothers wearing these tropical uniforms and one is in the Totenkopf Division.
Luft300
FIrst of all the two pictures you posted with SS men wearing tropical uniforms are NOT with the Tunis unit mentioned. As members of the Sicherheitsdienst, these men would NOT have been wearing the runic collar tabs, but BLANK collar tabs.
For Adolf Hitler the North Afrika campaign was a side show. He sent Rommel and the hastily made up DAK to North Afrika to bail the Italians out (again) and to tie down as many British and Commonwealth troops as possible. As long as Rommel was winning and causing the Allies many headaches, Hitler was happy. But the REAL theater of concern was against the Soviet Union. That is where he needed the bulk of his forces, as well as elite units, e.g. the Waffen-SS, Grossdeutschland, etc. Hitler wasn't going to send the cream of his forces to Afrika to be wasted in a side show. The closest the Waffen-SS came to Afrika was Italy and Greece. These were the primary places and areas where the Waffen-SS wore tropical clothing. The pictures you posted showed the Italian Sahariana style. There was also a German style tropical uniform, similar to the DAK uniforms but in more of a sand color. In fact in Angolia's CLOTH INSIGNIA OF THE SS there are two brothers wearing these tropical uniforms and one is in the Totenkopf Division.
Luft300
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WEISWEILER
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Luft300
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Christoph Awender
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Luft300, Hitler was planing to send Waffen-SS units to Afrika. Just the events on the eastfront prevented him from being able to do this. With your above quote you say that we are wrong. I am no military history greenhors who posts fantasy informations. As I said several veterans I know confirmed the plans. I have these interviews on tape including one with a former Sturmbannführer who showed me evidence for it which he got during his time in the quartermaster department.Luft300 wrote:......For Adolf Hitler the North Afrika campaign was a side show. He sent Rommel and the hastily made up DAK to North Afrika to bail the Italians out (again) and to tie down as many British and Commonwealth troops as possible. As long as Rommel was winning and causing the Allies many headaches, Hitler was happy. But the REAL theater of concern was against the Soviet Union. That is where he needed the bulk of his forces, as well as elite units, e.g. the Waffen-SS, Grossdeutschland, etc. Hitler wasn't going to send the cream of his forces to Afrika to be wasted in a side show. The closest the Waffen-SS came to Afrika was Italy and Greece. These were the primary places and areas where the Waffen-SS wore tropical clothing.......Luft300
\Christoph
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JamesL
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I just happened to finish reading the book Soldat by Siegfried Knappe. He was a German artillery officer.
When his unit transferred to Italy he noted "We were issued the khaki uniform worn by Rommel's Afrika Korps to replace our field gray uniform (North Africa had been lost to the Allies, and the uniforms were now to be used in Italy.)"
Knappe's description of crossing the Alps with horse drawn artillery at the Mont Cenis pass is an interesting read. Sounds like good motorcycle touring country.
When his unit transferred to Italy he noted "We were issued the khaki uniform worn by Rommel's Afrika Korps to replace our field gray uniform (North Africa had been lost to the Allies, and the uniforms were now to be used in Italy.)"
Knappe's description of crossing the Alps with horse drawn artillery at the Mont Cenis pass is an interesting read. Sounds like good motorcycle touring country.
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WEISWEILER
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This thread seems to have delivered a hypothesis, defended by Christoph, Harro and Charles. Harro and Charles, it would be helping if you could reveal some more on the level of sources.
To continue the real hard core: How the biography of men like Michael Wittmann would have looked like, if instead of railing to the East in their Tigers with the LSSAH's 13.(schwere)Kompanie Jan. 1943, they were shipped to Africa? And as I think this over, how would that of Monty have looked like? I think these would have been likely questions - if the hypothesis is right - that occupied the planmakers.
/W
To continue the real hard core: How the biography of men like Michael Wittmann would have looked like, if instead of railing to the East in their Tigers with the LSSAH's 13.(schwere)Kompanie Jan. 1943, they were shipped to Africa? And as I think this over, how would that of Monty have looked like? I think these would have been likely questions - if the hypothesis is right - that occupied the planmakers.
/W
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Luft300
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Christof,
I'm just bringing up stuff that I have read --- not calling anybody wrong. These guys could have been preparing for North Africa --- so be it, but I doubt if they would have ever gone there. Hitler could care less about North Africa and what was happening there. As it is he let the Allies capture some 250,000 DAK soldiers in Tunis. He didn't care! Your interviews are fine, but maybe it was all camouflage, a ploy to make the British think that these units were actually going there. Happens in military history all the time... same when Rommel had his troops fabricate tanks and other armored vehicles out of wood and canvas to make the British think that his force was far greater than it actually was. And the steppes of Russia aren't too much different from North Africa in many ways. This is what I've read and deducted.
Luft300
I'm just bringing up stuff that I have read --- not calling anybody wrong. These guys could have been preparing for North Africa --- so be it, but I doubt if they would have ever gone there. Hitler could care less about North Africa and what was happening there. As it is he let the Allies capture some 250,000 DAK soldiers in Tunis. He didn't care! Your interviews are fine, but maybe it was all camouflage, a ploy to make the British think that these units were actually going there. Happens in military history all the time... same when Rommel had his troops fabricate tanks and other armored vehicles out of wood and canvas to make the British think that his force was far greater than it actually was. And the steppes of Russia aren't too much different from North Africa in many ways. This is what I've read and deducted.
Luft300
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WEISWEILER
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Let's not forget, Luft, that the SD Einsatz-Kommando Tunis did operate in Africa. Enough sources to notice. Check also the Afrika-marked cuff of it's commander here above, well remarked by Marcus earlier in another thread on this forum.
Other forums conduct(ed) the same debate. They didn't came any further than some speculation, e.g. "the WSS didn't go because Rommel couldn't stand the SS". Unsourced and app. speculated. In fact, I couldn't find any argument that was convincing to say: oh, yes, that's a reason not the send the WSS. Apart from indeed the fact, as Christoph mentioned, that the East called in as very urgent.That argument makes sense. (Suppose that the Reich did overcome the Red Army, as was strongly believed for quit some time it would, an occupation force would have taken the place of the SS amongst other forces, and the SS would have moved to another scene of war. For example: Africa.)
For the SD: The Arabs where allied to the Reich in its struggle aigainst the Jews. That's why the Tunis Kommando was there. Introduction of WSS to reinforce the combat troops is just one step away. So the idea of Rommel being able to prevent SS from the African scene, is nonsense. It also proves that Hitler did care more than you seem to believe.
/W
Other forums conduct(ed) the same debate. They didn't came any further than some speculation, e.g. "the WSS didn't go because Rommel couldn't stand the SS". Unsourced and app. speculated. In fact, I couldn't find any argument that was convincing to say: oh, yes, that's a reason not the send the WSS. Apart from indeed the fact, as Christoph mentioned, that the East called in as very urgent.That argument makes sense. (Suppose that the Reich did overcome the Red Army, as was strongly believed for quit some time it would, an occupation force would have taken the place of the SS amongst other forces, and the SS would have moved to another scene of war. For example: Africa.)
For the SD: The Arabs where allied to the Reich in its struggle aigainst the Jews. That's why the Tunis Kommando was there. Introduction of WSS to reinforce the combat troops is just one step away. So the idea of Rommel being able to prevent SS from the African scene, is nonsense. It also proves that Hitler did care more than you seem to believe.
/W
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WEISWEILER
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About the filters:
"...the Pz Kpfw VI with its heavy armour, dual purpose armament and fighting ability was basically an excellent tank, and, constituted a considerable advance on any allied tank..." - British Report from 1943 based on a study of Tiger I captured in Tunisia. (with full tropical air filter 'Feifel' system - November 1942 to August 1943)
From: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tiger.htm.
/W
"...the Pz Kpfw VI with its heavy armour, dual purpose armament and fighting ability was basically an excellent tank, and, constituted a considerable advance on any allied tank..." - British Report from 1943 based on a study of Tiger I captured in Tunisia. (with full tropical air filter 'Feifel' system - November 1942 to August 1943)
From: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tiger.htm.
/W
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WEISWEILER
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The general plan to turn the African situation seems to have been first to send in Tigers, and than probably to send in from the most elite forces with Tigers: WSS.
"Im Sommer 1942 sind Rommel zwei Tigerabteilungen zugesichert wurden, die ur-
sprünglichen Planungen die sPzAbt 502 mit 20 Tiger (P) nach Afrika zu schicken
wurde wegen der Schwierigkeiten mit der Produktion neu überdacht. Die Erfolge
der Briten bei El Alamein zwangen das Oberkommando zum Handeln. Mit neuen,
modernen Waffen sollte die Entscheidung herbeigeführt werden. So wurde rasch
die erste Kompanie der sPzAbt 501 nach Afrika befohlen, die alliierte Landung in
Nordafrika verhinderte die Planmäßige Verlegung. Es wurden Teile der Abteilung
schrittweise nun nach Tunesien verlegt und dort schnell mit Pz.Kpfw III zu Kampf-
Gruppen zusammengefaßt. Die mit Wüstengelben Anstrich und speziellem Luft-
Filter ausgestatteten Tiger meisterten ihre ersten Einsätze bestens, der dort häufig
auftauchende Panzer "General Lee" konnte die Seitenpanzerung des Tigers auch
auf kurze Entfernungen unter 100 m nicht durchschlagen. Im Frühjahr 1943 wurde
eine weitere sPzAbt im Großraum Tunesien aufgestellt - 504. Der Zusammen-
bruch konnte jedoch nicht mehr verhindert werden. In Tunesien fielen erste Tiger
den Alliierten in die Hände, die nun diese Waffe genauen Untersuchungen unter-
ziehen konnten um sich auf die neue Gefahr besser vorbereiten zu können."
(http://www.tigerpanzer.de/afrika.htm)
There is a strong parallell with Christoph's these in the story of the schwere-Panzer-Abteilung 503
which was about the same time promissed to Rommel, though ultimately send the East (Kharkov).
"The 503rd was the second Tiger detachment promised to Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel for service in North Africa. The detachment was to be formed from Porsche manufactured Tigers, however the cancellation of production of the Porsche models (Tiger (P)) meant that the deployment was delayed, and the formation was equipped with Henschel Tigers. As the situation in North Africa was deemed lost, the 503rd was instead deployed to Generaloberst Erich von Manstein's Army Group South and was engaged in the desperate battles around Kharkov to halt the Soviet advance after the collapse of the 6.Armee Stalingrad." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_503 ... Detachment)
/W
"Im Sommer 1942 sind Rommel zwei Tigerabteilungen zugesichert wurden, die ur-
sprünglichen Planungen die sPzAbt 502 mit 20 Tiger (P) nach Afrika zu schicken
wurde wegen der Schwierigkeiten mit der Produktion neu überdacht. Die Erfolge
der Briten bei El Alamein zwangen das Oberkommando zum Handeln. Mit neuen,
modernen Waffen sollte die Entscheidung herbeigeführt werden. So wurde rasch
die erste Kompanie der sPzAbt 501 nach Afrika befohlen, die alliierte Landung in
Nordafrika verhinderte die Planmäßige Verlegung. Es wurden Teile der Abteilung
schrittweise nun nach Tunesien verlegt und dort schnell mit Pz.Kpfw III zu Kampf-
Gruppen zusammengefaßt. Die mit Wüstengelben Anstrich und speziellem Luft-
Filter ausgestatteten Tiger meisterten ihre ersten Einsätze bestens, der dort häufig
auftauchende Panzer "General Lee" konnte die Seitenpanzerung des Tigers auch
auf kurze Entfernungen unter 100 m nicht durchschlagen. Im Frühjahr 1943 wurde
eine weitere sPzAbt im Großraum Tunesien aufgestellt - 504. Der Zusammen-
bruch konnte jedoch nicht mehr verhindert werden. In Tunesien fielen erste Tiger
den Alliierten in die Hände, die nun diese Waffe genauen Untersuchungen unter-
ziehen konnten um sich auf die neue Gefahr besser vorbereiten zu können."
(http://www.tigerpanzer.de/afrika.htm)
There is a strong parallell with Christoph's these in the story of the schwere-Panzer-Abteilung 503
which was about the same time promissed to Rommel, though ultimately send the East (Kharkov).
"The 503rd was the second Tiger detachment promised to Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel for service in North Africa. The detachment was to be formed from Porsche manufactured Tigers, however the cancellation of production of the Porsche models (Tiger (P)) meant that the deployment was delayed, and the formation was equipped with Henschel Tigers. As the situation in North Africa was deemed lost, the 503rd was instead deployed to Generaloberst Erich von Manstein's Army Group South and was engaged in the desperate battles around Kharkov to halt the Soviet advance after the collapse of the 6.Armee Stalingrad." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_503 ... Detachment)
/W