Were the first Soviet jets copies of German aircraft designs

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Brian Ross
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Were the first Soviet jets copies of German aircraft designs

Post by Brian Ross » 12 May 2006 01:29

Rather than clutter up the quiz thread with this discussion, I've decided to start a new thread. The premise that the Russia's early jet fighters is IMO not borne out by the evidence. This passage might have some relevance on the topic:

Following this [the flight of the first Soviet captured Me-262], a Kremlin conferenceduring December of 1945 attended by VVS and Ministtry of Aircraft Production staff members led to a rather pivotal decision not to place in production advanced captured German aircraft aircraft such as the Me-262. Aleksandr Yakovlev, in attendance at the time, successfully argued that the Luftwaffe fighter was too complex for Soviet production capabilities, and that placing the aircraf in production would have a serious effect on design bureau morale.
[p.56, Butowski, P., &, Miller, J., OKB MiG: a history of the design bureau and its aircraft, Midland Counties Publications, Leicester, 1991.

Therefore, I suspect the claim that the Su-9 and Su-11 were copies of the Me-262 are a bit questionable.

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Ome_Joop
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Post by Ome_Joop » 12 May 2006 06:17

The engines were copies...the aircraft is very similar...there is a difference :wink:
Im a big fan of Russian dessigns but that doesn't make me think that the Su-9 is not bassed upon or even similar as the me-262...it's simple not a copy!
But the source doesn't disclude the fact that it would have influenced the design!
Another strange thing is that if they can succesfully copy/reproduce a B-29 and JuMo engines than why would an Me-262 be to difficult?...that is simple not logical and probable therefore not true!

BTW what does MiG OKB have to do with the Sukhoi design bureau?

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Pips
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Post by Pips » 12 May 2006 06:28

Design is a strange thing. All designers feed off others work, after all it's a constant seeking to improve on the product and knowledge, wherever it comes from, is to be capitalised upon. Did Soviet designers use the available knowledge of the Germans? Without doubt, as did the British and Americans. Did they copy? No.

Lavochkin's La-152 of 1946 was of wholly indigenous design, and it in turn led to the La-15. The Yak-3 was the basis of Yak's first jet, the Yak-15, which used a reveresed engineered version of the Junkers 004B turbojet. MiG's first jet was the MiG-9, which flew it's first short hop on 19/4/46. It relied on the British Nene engine for it's power, yet was still a Soviet designed aircraft.

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Brian Ross
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Post by Brian Ross » 12 May 2006 06:37

OK, perhaps we need to define a few things. Here's a few suggestions, so we can make sure we're all talking about the same thing.

"copy" - an identical copy of the original

"copied" - a design that is substantially the same as the original

"influenced" - a design which takes influences from the original but is essentially original.

The Su-9 would, I'd suggest be an influenced design or even perhaps at most a copied one. It is not a copy of the original. There are substantial differences between it and the Me262.

The Su-11 is only influenced by the Me262 (ie it is the same general configuration and has been scaled up, if anything it could be said to be a copy of the Su-9.

The MiG-15 is I would suggest is only influenced by the Ta-183 (the Saab-29 is an even closer copied design IMO).

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 12 May 2006 12:26

Humble suggestion: maybe the Russians did not copy nut-by-nut, bolt-by-bolt, the Wunderwaffe planes, because these planes had been designed in a hurry, in bare weeks, without sufficient study and wind galley tests. In a word, because they were disappointing, and there was much to be improved, giving time.

(heresy! 8O EveryLuft86thing was perrrrrrrrrfekt! :x )

OTOH work on BMW 003 and Jumo 004 had been started in 1939-40, so they had been studied well enough, and were mature designs (and still there was space for improvements, in the choice of materials)

Davide

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Ome_Joop
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Post by Ome_Joop » 12 May 2006 14:52

Davide Pastore wrote:
(heresy! 8O EveryLuft86thing was perrrrrrrrrfekt! :x )
Ofcoarse they were perfect every design is perfect....only the builders can screw things up :lol:

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Post by Grendel-B » 12 May 2006 18:49

Certainly SOviets used much of what they captured from Germans. But Soviets also had first of their own jets flying already before the end of the war.

Neverthless, large number of German designs were captured/flown or built/flown by the Soviets. Also, do not forget that Soviets had captured hundreds of German engineers, who first worked for Soviets in East Germany and were then transferred into Russia itself to continue with airplane designs.

Soviets had a whole aircraft design bureau working solely on German designs or designs made by the German engineers in Russia.

Soviet built versions of German jet engines were used into late 1940s in various designs, and German data gave SOviets a good boost in engines, aerodynamics and so on. Later Soviet bult jet engines used features from Allied as well as German designs.

So there was much things from Germans the Soviets used, but in the end, Soviets used rather their "own" designs than took something "German" into production. Soviets built and flew dozens of German designs and the experience/data from those were used well later.

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Brian Ross
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Post by Brian Ross » 13 May 2006 01:36

"Dozens"? I think you exaggerate somewhat. I know of only two German designs the Russians built. The I-270, an almost direct rebuild of the Me263 and the Ju287 (the Russian designation of which escapes me). The point of the quote I made was that the Russians weren't under any illusions about how sophisticated their industry was, the Germans utilised methods beyond them and so they decided not to build copies of those aircraft.

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Post by Davide Pastore » 13 May 2006 07:52

Brian Ross wrote:the Russians weren't under any illusions about how sophisticated their industry was, the Germans utilised methods beyond them
Like the WOODEN wings of the so-often-acclaimed-here Ta 183? 8O

I want to repeat my heresy again: most of 1945 wunderwaffe products were primitive ones, designed for ease of building, not for performance.

Davide

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Post by Tony Williams » 13 May 2006 09:27

Ome_Joop wrote:Im a big fan of Russian dessigns but that doesn't make me think that the Su-9 is not bassed upon or even similar as the me-262...it's simple not a copy!
But the source doesn't disclude the fact that it would have influenced the design!
The story that the Su-9 was a copy of the Me 262 was put about by one of Sukhoi's rivals (I can't recall whether it was Yakovlev or Mikoyan) in order to discredit the design in Stalin's eyes - a successful ploy, as it turned out. Interesting that it's still doing the rounds after all this time!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

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Post by Ome_Joop » 13 May 2006 09:59

Tony Williams wrote:
Ome_Joop wrote:Im a big fan of Russian dessigns but that doesn't make me think that the Su-9 is not bassed upon or even similar as the me-262...it's simple not a copy!
But the source doesn't disclude the fact that it would have influenced the design!
The story that the Su-9 was a copy of the Me 262 was put about by one of Sukhoi's rivals (I can't recall whether it was Yakovlev or Mikoyan) in order to discredit the design in Stalin's eyes - a successful ploy, as it turned out. Interesting that it's still doing the rounds after all this time!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Yakovlev!

But then againthat could be just a story...

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Davide Pastore
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Post by Davide Pastore » 13 May 2006 10:38

Ome_Joop wrote:Yakovlev!
According to Buttler & Gordon, Soviet Secret Projects, Aleksandr Yakovlev was noteworthy amongst Soviet plane designers for his high-placed political connections:
The man himself, however, was very politically attuned and aligned with the leadership of the Communist Party, rather more than most of his colleagues, which sometimes allowed him to influence future policy in his favour. In the 1930s he was criticical of the famous designer Andrei Tupolev and played a part in his imprisonment, which resulted in hostility between Yakovlev and parts of the Soviet aircraft industry.
This also explain the odd choice of building in large series such obsolete designs like Yak-25 and Yak-28.

Davide

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Post by Ome_Joop » 13 May 2006 12:48

Davide Pastore wrote:
This also explain the odd choice of building in large series such obsolete designs like Yak-25 and Yak-28.

Davide
Yak-28 outdated? I always thought the Brewer/Firebar were quite capable aircraft at their time (sixties)?
How many were built (IIRC it were around 700 or so?)

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Brian Ross
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Post by Brian Ross » 13 May 2006 14:52

They were. They were as capable, if not more so than their comparable Western counterpart, the Canberra. They were a progressive evolution of a reasonably good design.

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Post by Michael Emrys » 13 May 2006 18:02

Ome_Joop wrote:Yak-28 outdated? I always thought the Brewer/Firebar were quite capable aircraft at their time (sixties)?
Apparently the Yak-25 first flew in 1952. The bomber version made its first public appearance in 1956. So I guess it's likely it could have been in use well into the '60s.

Michael

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