Best american bomber compared to german bombers

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Cantankerous
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by Cantankerous » 15 Mar 2021 01:29

sailorsam wrote:
15 Mar 2021 00:14
I wonder how much the High Command regretted not having a heavy bomber for the USSR.

saw this pic on internet somewhere of the Ta-400
Given that a number of German generals (e.g. Fromm, Raeder) advised Hitler against invading the USSR, Hitler could have ordered either the Ta 400 or Me 264 into production had he followed the suggestion by Goering and some people close to Goering that the Luftwaffe conduct long-range air raids on the US Eastern Seaboard given Hitler's denunciation of African Americans as inferior to Aryans and his accusations of Jews controlling the major US banks, including those in Manhattan.

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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by Peter89 » 15 Mar 2021 14:11

Cantankerous wrote:
15 Mar 2021 01:29
sailorsam wrote:
15 Mar 2021 00:14
I wonder how much the High Command regretted not having a heavy bomber for the USSR.

saw this pic on internet somewhere of the Ta-400
Given that a number of German generals (e.g. Fromm, Raeder) advised Hitler against invading the USSR, Hitler could have ordered either the Ta 400 or Me 264 into production had he followed the suggestion by Goering and some people close to Goering that the Luftwaffe conduct long-range air raids on the US Eastern Seaboard given Hitler's denunciation of African Americans as inferior to Aryans and his accusations of Jews controlling the major US banks, including those in Manhattan.
Germany not so much lacked the design but the resources for a heavy bomber force. Everything else is like the Italian bombing of Bahrein.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 17 Mar 2021 03:55

Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings. The Amerika bomber was a pointless fantasy. Without a nuclear or chemical payload, bombing the US was not going to have any effect- unless US Citizens turned to to have had far less moral fibre than those of Britain or Germany.

There are a lot of US bombers to choose from that existed and flew. US heavy bombers included the B29, B24 and B17. These deployed in numbers and had a material effect on the war. The He177 was a heavy bomber, but had serious technical issues and arrived in service too late,

The US B26 and B26 medium bombers were roughly comparable to the Ju88. However, German procurement was set several years before those of the US. The Ju88 first flew in 1936 while the B25 and B26 first flew four years later in 1940 - as did the DH Mosquito. The Ju88 was arguably the most versatile bomber of WW2.
Don't forget the the B-32 and PB4Y which alone came close to equalling the entire German production of four-engined aircraft, even including the He177.

And both types in operational combat service and deployed into transoceanic theaters, and at the group/wing level during the war; the Germans, Japanese, and Italians together never managed the equivalent.

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SpicyJuan
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 11 Apr 2021 22:41

Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.

LineDoggie
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by LineDoggie » 12 Apr 2021 23:28

SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Differences are simple. US Bombers like the B-29 were real and practical designs, the german ones were not but basically "lets add some more wing to a JU90 and lengthen it because we have nothing else''
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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SpicyJuan
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 23 Apr 2021 14:38

LineDoggie wrote:
12 Apr 2021 23:28
SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Differences are simple. US Bombers like the B-29 were real and practical designs, the german ones were not but basically "lets add some more wing to a JU90 and lengthen it because we have nothing else''
This is wrong on so many levels that it reads like a troll post

LineDoggie
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by LineDoggie » 24 Apr 2021 01:44

SpicyJuan wrote:
23 Apr 2021 14:38
LineDoggie wrote:
12 Apr 2021 23:28
SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Differences are simple. US Bombers like the B-29 were real and practical designs, the german ones were not but basically "lets add some more wing to a JU90 and lengthen it because we have nothing else''
This is wrong on so many levels that it reads like a troll post
I posted FACT disprove the B29 flew in large numbers, wehraboo...
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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SpicyJuan
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 24 Apr 2021 02:25

LineDoggie wrote:
24 Apr 2021 01:44
SpicyJuan wrote:
23 Apr 2021 14:38
LineDoggie wrote:
12 Apr 2021 23:28
SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Differences are simple. US Bombers like the B-29 were real and practical designs, the german ones were not but basically "lets add some more wing to a JU90 and lengthen it because we have nothing else''
This is wrong on so many levels that it reads like a troll post
I posted FACT disprove the B29 flew in large numbers, wehraboo...
Wehraboo? You’re the one making factually inaccurate, overbroad nationalistic claims which are irrelevant to the thread.

There were several other German heavy bomber projects that were built and flown than just the Ju 390 if you bothered to do the tiniest amount of research or read the OP. There is nothing more practical about the B-29 than the German projects, in fact in many ways it was more technically complex and plagued with problems for years. Who cares if it’s issues were eventually rectified and it saw widespread service? That’s completely irrelevant to the technical discussion of comparing it to German strategic bomber projects.

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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 24 Apr 2021 07:44

SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Americans had planned for and actually ran an operational heavy bombardment force in 1918; they spent the interwar years researching, designing, building, and flying heavy bombers and all the technical elements necessary to build them (all metal structures, light alloys, high performance engines, both water and air-cooled, high octane fuels, communications, navigations, and weapons delivery systems, ordnance), as well as the necessary planning, doctrine, and training organizations to use them.

The USAAF and the USN procured multiple "heavy bombers" in the 1930s and 1940s, of which (arguably) five different designs went into series production and were deployed operationally and proven in combat in multiple theaters, both maritime and continental; the Germans managed nothing in comparison, largely because they couldn't come up with a reason for a heavy bomber force that ever managed to withstand contact with the realities of Germany's strategic position.

The Americans designed heavy bombers that accomplished their missions over the Atlantic, Pacific, Germany, and Japan; the Germans designed experimental test aircraft that, at best, were the equivalent of the B-15 the Americans had built, flown and been done with years earlier.

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SpicyJuan
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 24 Apr 2021 17:25

daveshoup2MD wrote:
24 Apr 2021 07:44
SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Americans had planned for and actually ran an operational heavy bombardment force in 1918; they spent the interwar years researching, designing, building, and flying heavy bombers and all the technical elements necessary to build them (all metal structures, light alloys, high performance engines, both water and air-cooled, high octane fuels, communications, navigations, and weapons delivery systems, ordnance), as well as the necessary planning, doctrine, and training organizations to use them.

The USAAF and the USN procured multiple "heavy bombers" in the 1930s and 1940s, of which (arguably) five different designs went into series production and were deployed operationally and proven in combat in multiple theaters, both maritime and continental; the Germans managed nothing in comparison, largely because they couldn't come up with a reason for a heavy bomber force that ever managed to withstand contact with the realities of Germany's strategic position.

The Americans designed heavy bombers that accomplished their missions over the Atlantic, Pacific, Germany, and Japan; the Germans designed experimental test aircraft that, at best, were the equivalent of the B-15 the Americans had built, flown and been done with years earlier.
The Germans also had a strategic bombing force in WWI, composed not only of Zeppelins, but later also of hundreds of Gotha bombers and developed the largest aircraft of the war such as the Siemens-Schuckert R.VIII whose 157 ft wingspan was unmatched until the 1930s. Obviously the Germans being restricted by Versailles and its own economic and industrial resources severely hampered their own bomber design, but it would be wrong to say that they were idle in the interwar years. Several designs were drawn up and several built and flown such as the Dornier Do P, Do Y, and Do 11, with several hundred Do 23s built. You also had the Bv 142 as well as the Ural bomber projects of the Do 19 and Ju 89 which were very comparable to the early versions of the B-17. They were not cancelled because the Germans couldn’t design and fly a good bomber, rather because of the death of Walter Wever, doctrinal placement, and the birth of the Bomber A project which culminated in Heinkel He 177 of which over a thousand were built.

To say the Germans built nothing more than “at best”, the equivalent of the XB-15 is factually inaccurate and just nationalistic “hoo rah” chants.

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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 24 Apr 2021 22:34

In terms of a test aircraft that was used to try and figure out what a heavy bomber could or would do, what is the difference between the Me 264 program and the XB-15 program, in your opinion? Both were, essentially, operational test and design evaluation programs, and neither one resulted in an operational combat aircraft, much less an operational combat force. At least the Italians managed that with the P-108, albeit with very little success.

The Ju 390 was, essentially, the outgrowth of a modified transport aircraft, and demonstrates the design compromises such a project will always result in, given the significant differences between on and the other, as does the Japanese effort to turn out a strategic bomber based on the DC-4E airframe.

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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by daveshoup2MD » 24 Apr 2021 22:40

LineDoggie wrote:
24 Apr 2021 01:44
SpicyJuan wrote:
23 Apr 2021 14:38
LineDoggie wrote:
12 Apr 2021 23:28
SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41
Sheldrake wrote:
14 Mar 2021 23:26
This thread topic is the best US bomber compared to German bombers,. The result is a long thread about various German bombers that only existed as drawings.
Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Differences are simple. US Bombers like the B-29 were real and practical designs, the german ones were not but basically "lets add some more wing to a JU90 and lengthen it because we have nothing else''
This is wrong on so many levels that it reads like a troll post
I posted FACT disprove the B29 flew in large numbers, wehraboo...
Yeah, the records of the strategic air campaign against Japan in 1944-45 seem irrefutable, in terms of B-29s in the air and dropping bombs on Axis targets.

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SpicyJuan
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 24 Apr 2021 22:59

daveshoup2MD wrote:
24 Apr 2021 22:34
In terms of a test aircraft that was used to try and figure out what a heavy bomber could or would do, what is the difference between the Me 264 program and the XB-15 program, in your opinion? Both were, essentially, operational test and design evaluation programs, and neither one resulted in an operational combat aircraft, much less an operational combat force. At least the Italians managed that with the P-108, albeit with very little success.

The Ju 390 was, essentially, the outgrowth of a modified transport aircraft, and demonstrates the design compromises such a project will always result in, given the significant differences between on and the other, as does the Japanese effort to turn out a strategic bomber based on the DC-4E airframe.
The Me 264 was not designed as a test aircraft, it was designed as a bomber from the outset and a limited series production was planned multiple times but cancelled due to limited German resources, the worsening war situation, and allied bombing.

If you want to play that game, technically the Ju 390 was a further develop of the Ju 290, which itself was a development of the Ju 90 which was the development of the Ju 89, a bomber. This is all meaningless, however. The Ju 390 was significantly modified from the Ju 290 and was intended from the outset as a bomber.

LineDoggie
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by LineDoggie » 24 Apr 2021 23:02

SpicyJuan wrote:
24 Apr 2021 02:25
LineDoggie wrote:
24 Apr 2021 01:44
SpicyJuan wrote:
23 Apr 2021 14:38
LineDoggie wrote:
12 Apr 2021 23:28
SpicyJuan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 22:41


Several Me 264 and Ju 390 prototypes were built and flown. And my OP clearly stated that I cared about German designs and not operational aircraft. I wanted to understand the differences in heavy bomber design between America and Germany.
The Differences are simple. US Bombers like the B-29 were real and practical designs, the german ones were not but basically "lets add some more wing to a JU90 and lengthen it because we have nothing else''
This is wrong on so many levels that it reads like a troll post
I posted FACT disprove the B29 flew in large numbers, wehraboo...
Wehraboo? You’re the one making factually inaccurate, overbroad nationalistic claims which are irrelevant to the thread.

There were several other German heavy bomber projects that were built and flown than just the Ju 390 if you bothered to do the tiniest amount of research or read the OP. There is nothing more practical about the B-29 than the German projects, in fact in many ways it was more technically complex and plagued with problems for years. Who cares if it’s issues were eventually rectified and it saw widespread service? That’s completely irrelevant to the technical discussion of comparing it to German strategic bomber projects.
you're a Liar

Again for the Wehraboo

the B-29 was a fully tested and vetted aircraft deployed on ACTUAL combat operations at group and wing level in India, China, the Pacific. Over 3,000 built before VJ day.

Show where ANY of the Wehraboo bombers came close to this strength or ability to execute missions

MISSION SUMMARY

Mission Number 40

Date: 9 March 1945

Code Name: Meetinghouse #2
Target: Tokyo Urban Area

Participating Units: 73rd, 313th and 314th Bombardment Wings.

Number A/C Airborne: 325

% A/C Bombing Primary: 86% (279 primary, 0 Secondary, 5 last Resort and 15 Opportunity)

Time Over Primary: 100107K - 100400K
Altitude of Attack: 4,900 - 9,200
Weather Over Target: 3/10

Total A/C Lost: 14

Resume of Mission: 469,146,000 square feet destroyed or damaged (1080 acres - 16.8 square miles). Bombing results excellent. Twenty six aircraft non-effective. One aircraft lost to AA, one aircraft lost to survey, five aircraft ditched and seven aircraft lost to reasons unknown. Enemy air opposition weak - 40 attacks, no claims. AA moderate to intense and accurate. Average bomb load 13,880 lbs. 73rd wing, 12,857 lbs, 3l3th Wing and 9,672 lbs. 314th Wing. Average gas reserve 1044 gallons.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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SpicyJuan
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Re: Best american bomber compared to german bombers

Post by SpicyJuan » 24 Apr 2021 23:32

LineDoggie wrote:
24 Apr 2021 23:02
SpicyJuan wrote:
24 Apr 2021 02:25
LineDoggie wrote:
24 Apr 2021 01:44
SpicyJuan wrote:
23 Apr 2021 14:38
LineDoggie wrote:
12 Apr 2021 23:28
The Differences are simple. US Bombers like the B-29 were real and practical designs, the german ones were not but basically "lets add some more wing to a JU90 and lengthen it because we have nothing else''
This is wrong on so many levels that it reads like a troll post
I posted FACT disprove the B29 flew in large numbers, wehraboo...
Wehraboo? You’re the one making factually inaccurate, overbroad nationalistic claims which are irrelevant to the thread.

There were several other German heavy bomber projects that were built and flown than just the Ju 390 if you bothered to do the tiniest amount of research or read the OP. There is nothing more practical about the B-29 than the German projects, in fact in many ways it was more technically complex and plagued with problems for years. Who cares if it’s issues were eventually rectified and it saw widespread service? That’s completely irrelevant to the technical discussion of comparing it to German strategic bomber projects.
you're a Liar

Again for the Wehraboo

the B-29 was a fully tested and vetted aircraft deployed on ACTUAL combat operations at group and wing level in India, China, the Pacific. Over 3,000 built before VJ day.

Show where ANY of the Wehraboo bombers came close to this strength or ability to execute missions

MISSION SUMMARY

Mission Number 40

Date: 9 March 1945

Code Name: Meetinghouse #2
Target: Tokyo Urban Area

Participating Units: 73rd, 313th and 314th Bombardment Wings.

Number A/C Airborne: 325

% A/C Bombing Primary: 86% (279 primary, 0 Secondary, 5 last Resort and 15 Opportunity)

Time Over Primary: 100107K - 100400K
Altitude of Attack: 4,900 - 9,200
Weather Over Target: 3/10

Total A/C Lost: 14

Resume of Mission: 469,146,000 square feet destroyed or damaged (1080 acres - 16.8 square miles). Bombing results excellent. Twenty six aircraft non-effective. One aircraft lost to AA, one aircraft lost to survey, five aircraft ditched and seven aircraft lost to reasons unknown. Enemy air opposition weak - 40 attacks, no claims. AA moderate to intense and accurate. Average bomb load 13,880 lbs. 73rd wing, 12,857 lbs, 3l3th Wing and 9,672 lbs. 314th Wing. Average gas reserve 1044 gallons.
I’m not a Wehraboo or a liar, you’re just an idiot. You came in this thread inaccurately saying the Germans “had no real or practical” designs and creating irrelevant standards (such as mass production, widespread usage, combat success, etc) that have no bearing to the discussion of the technical differences of the aircraft. The thread is not about “look at how much better the German designs are than the B-29!” either. If you bothered reading past the thread title you would have known this.

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