Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

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Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 27 Jun 2021 20:46

In this report regarding cancellation of light antitank weapons, evidently small type AFV, one cancelled project is called Hetzer.

Document drawn up by the Chef H Rüst u BdE Department which responds to a series of topics discussed during a meeting held at the end of January 1944 in relation to issues of production and development of different types of weapons. In the translated excerpt the Wa Prüf 6 announces the cancellation of the developments of different types of Kleinstpanzer in favor of the production of the 38t.

Note :
As is characteristic of these dates, the document perfectly reflects the existing ambiguity in relation to the function of the new vehicle: on the one hand the name "light tank destroyer" is used, on the other hand it is attributed the function of an "assault gun" and his destiny is in the Infantry.


Original Document

http://www.panzer-elmito.org/cazacarros ... 944_D.html


Small tank destroyers (Klein-Panzerjäger) :

Generalmajor Beißwänger (Gen d Chef H Rüst):

The use of this type of designation is not desirable, the introduction of model designations is essential.

Oberst Crohn (Wa Prüf 6):

For Germany the Romanian development is not interesting, the production of the le.Pz.Jäg. 38t (see point 6) is decided. For this reason the projects Hetzer, Rutscher, carriers of demolition charges on Püppchen and the like are canceled.

New le.Pz.Jäg. 38t (Infantry assault gun)

Oberst Crohn (Wa Prüf 6):

His presentation will take place on 26.01. in the Headquarters with a new bathtub and new gearbox, same armament as the Pz.Jäg. IV. The start of its production is scheduled for April. An increase in its production is expected until December 1944 until reaching 1000 vehicles per month.

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 27 Jun 2021 20:51

This is the Rutscher mentioned in the report....

https://firearmcentral.fandom.com/wiki/ ... t%C3%B6rer

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 27 Jun 2021 21:33

'Hetzer' was the name for the E-10.

The Jagdpanzer 38 was originally designated an assault gun, and was issued in significant quantities to infantry divisions.

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Der Rittmeister » 27 Jun 2021 22:07

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
27 Jun 2021 21:33
'Hetzer' was the name for the E-10.

The Jagdpanzer 38 was originally designated an assault gun, and was issued in significant quantities to infantry divisions.
Do you have any sources covering allocations of the Jagdpanzer 38?

Cheers, Ritt.

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 28 Jun 2021 03:17

Der Rittmeister wrote:
27 Jun 2021 22:07
Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
27 Jun 2021 21:33
'Hetzer' was the name for the E-10.

The Jagdpanzer 38 was originally designated an assault gun, and was issued in significant quantities to infantry divisions.
Do you have any sources covering allocations of the Jagdpanzer 38?

Cheers, Ritt.
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=74614&p=671906&hil ... ns#p671906

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 28 Jun 2021 03:26

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:
27 Jun 2021 21:33
'Hetzer' was the name for the E-10.

The Jagdpanzer 38 was originally designated an assault gun, and was issued in significant quantities to infantry divisions.
Hitler said this....

Minutes of what was discussed at the Führer's Headquarters on December 6 and 7, 1943

Due to the fact that after being studied again, the capacities authorized at the time by the Führer to convert the production of the 38 t to assault guns have been considered as inadequate, the Führer agrees with the proposal to take advantage of the productive capacities of this company in the production of a new light tank destroyer. It would initially be a vehicle of approximately 13 tons whose exceptional speed of between 55 - 60 km / h would balance an armor only its extremely sloping front.

...and...
Notes

on the meeting at OKW on 01.19.1944

[...]

The Romanians have independently developed a very light and agile tank destroyer. Caliber 7.5 cm, fire height 90 cm, armor 45 mm, speed 60 Km / h.

In this sense, the Führer has given Minister Speer the same order and he has then proposed the new 38t tank destroyer on chassis, of which he intends to manufacture 1,000 units per month by autumn. This vehicle will be destined for the tank destroyer battalions of the infantry divisions. In this way, the assault gun will once again be available for its true purpose within the Artillery.
...meaning StuG III/IV would not have to be issued to infantry divisions.

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 28 Jun 2021 04:04

There is at least one primary document showing that (Hetzer) is used, along with 'Jagdpzr. 38' in the same document....
Hetzerhetzer.jpg
http://www.panzer-elmito.org/cazacarros ... zer_E.html
10.12.1944

Der General Inspekteur der Panzertruppen
Abt.Org. Nr. 4398/44 g.Kdos.

Conference with the Führer
[...]
Explanation of the term 'Hetzer'
The term comes from the troop and thus defines the Jagdpanzer 38.
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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 01 Jul 2021 06:27

I would say there is sufficient evidence that the unofficial name 'Hetzer', while not a proclaimed term for the vehicle, it was a slang for the AFV among the troops. Similar to troops calling 251/9 "Stummel", or Tiger I "Furniture Vans", etc.

Some people claim that the E-10 was supposed to chase down USA M-18 TD....I think there might be much less evidence of that supposed claim. Sounds like a WOT scenario....

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 05 Jul 2021 08:28

E-10 was basically just a refined Hetzer in appearance, wasn't it? Granted using "E-Series" parts such as wheels, etc.

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 05 Jul 2021 21:25

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
05 Jul 2021 08:28
E-10 was basically just a refined Hetzer in appearance, wasn't it? Granted using "E-Series" parts such as wheels, etc.
From the report above, they indicate they are all separate ongoing projects. So, I don't see how the E-10 can be a refinement of the Jagdpanzer 38? It was actually somewhat radically different. Rear drive, large engine (HP), variable suspension (height); really a completely new vehicle while the Jagdpanzer 38 was somewhat derived from the Marder vehicles built on the Czech chassis.

I am not sure if there ever was more than a few prototypes built of the E-10. It seems even smaller than the Jagdpanzer 38, and I bet it would be cramped.

Image

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 06 Jul 2021 03:29

Yoozername wrote:
05 Jul 2021 21:25
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
05 Jul 2021 08:28
E-10 was basically just a refined Hetzer in appearance, wasn't it? Granted using "E-Series" parts such as wheels, etc.
From the report above, they indicate they are all separate ongoing projects. So, I don't see how the E-10 can be a refinement of the Jagdpanzer 38? It was actually somewhat radically different. Rear drive, large engine (HP), variable suspension (height); really a completely new vehicle while the Jagdpanzer 38 was somewhat derived from the Marder vehicles built on the Czech chassis.

I am not sure if there ever was more than a few prototypes built of the E-10. It seems even smaller than the Jagdpanzer 38, and I bet it would be cramped.

Image
Four large roadwheels, heavily sloped front with a nearly identical casemate design, very similar designs.

Although also radically different too. I mean it is easily understood how people confuse/confused the two then and now.

Adorable little tank, did it use the washer suspension like the larger E's?

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 06 Jul 2021 19:11


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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Hoover » 12 Jul 2021 14:38

Some says that the name Hetzer was planned for the E-10, some for the JgPz 38d (Tatra Diesel-Engine). But it was used for the JgPz 38.

It was not the official name for the JgPz 38. So that´s it?

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Re: Was 'Hetzer' name actually another project?

Post by Yoozername » 15 Jul 2021 05:26

Hoover wrote:
12 Jul 2021 14:38
Some says that the name Hetzer was planned for the E-10, some for the JgPz 38d (Tatra Diesel-Engine). But it was used for the JgPz 38.

It was not the official name for the JgPz 38. So that´s it?
Pretty much. Also AFV like Hummel, Grille and some others were not official. Hitler seemingly was involved with the official names.

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