Armoured PzGren company numbering

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
spannermann
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by spannermann » 28 Jun 2021 16:59

Ian,
A possible answer for the disappearance of the PanzerSchrecks is that there were problems with the initial production model, often called the RPzB 43, its tube was too weak and was prone to denting, distortion and blowout, the RPzB 54 had a thicker tube, but there was a break in production whilst this problem was rectified.

So as far as the paperwork was concerned it was withdrawn from the Kstn's in early/mid 1944.

cheers PAUL

yantaylor
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by yantaylor » 29 Jun 2021 10:55

I don't think they ever made a return Paul, I have checked a number of Pz Gren companies KStNs for 44 and 45, and can't see them in the weapons list.

Ian

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by Gary Kennedy » 29 Jun 2021 14:37

Ian,

Re a couple of points you asked about in the last few posts.

The way I tend to track the various changes in the official organisation of the Armoured Panzer Grenadier Company, at least from 1943 to 1944, is along these lines.

Company HQ - always based on two 251/3s

Three Rifle Platoons - always based on four 251s, one for HQ and one for each of the three Squads. Platoon HQ 251 to mount a 3.7-cm Pak, which is something I think most people accept was achieved in practice.

Heavy Platoon - based (from the April 1943 KStN) on seven 251s, two each dismounting two HMG teams, two each mounting an 8-cm mortar (251/2) and two each mounting a 7.5-cm cannon (251/9). Seventh 251 is for Platoon HQ.

Changes made to the above outline structure with the November 1943 KStN are effectively;

Company HQ - add a 251 to carry four teams, each team dismounting with one RPzB-54, intended to be the 251/17 mounting a 2-cm Flak
Rifle Platoon - 3.7-cm Pak replaced by 2-cm Flak
Heavy Platoon - add a 2-cm Flak to Platoon HQ vehicle, and each 251 carrying HMG team

The old argument endures, about the non-availability of the 251/17 with the 2-cm Flak to meet the high demand written into the November 1943 KStNs. Tabletop solution, I would suggest, use standard 251s or assume the previous 251/10s fill the positions.

Changes made to the November 1943 KStN with the introduction of the April 1944 KStN;

Company HQ - lose the 251/17 with the Panzerschreck teams. Still two 251/3 for HQ duties
Three Rifle Platoons - still four 251s, with HQ vehicle still intended to be the 251/17
Heavy Platoon - still seven 251s; two 251/2 with mortars, two 251/9 with 7.5-cm cannon, two 251/17 for the (four) HMG teams and one 251/17 for Platoon HQ.

Same argument about the 251/17 being around to use, same suggestion from me.

Changes made to the April 1944 KStN with the July 1944 KStN;

Company HQ - adds a 251/17, now it seems purely for AA defence
Three Rifle Platoons - as April 1944 in terms of halftracks (actually adds a dedicated gunner for the 2-cm Flak in HQ vehicle)
Heavy Platoon - HQ 251 becomes a standard 251/1; HMGs drop to three teams, each team now carried in its own 251, which again is supposed to be the 251/17. Personnel changes give each of these a dedicated gunner and loader for the 2-cm Flak. For the first time the Company drops from four heavy machine guns to three. No change to the 8-cm mortar and 7.5-cm cannon strength.

Re the Panzerschrecks, which are lavishly issued in November 1943, only to be completely deleted with the April 1944 fG (freeing organisation) reboot, I think they 'might' have come back before the end of 1944. Over on the germandocsinrussia site, there are a few documents produced by the Panzer Truppenschule, Bergen, dated August 1944. One of these gives details of the Panzer Grenadier Regiment, based on the April 1944 fG organisation. Under Sondermunition, which includes hand grenades and Panzerfausts, there are also Panzerschrecks listed for certain units of the Regiment.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4

The Armoured Panzer Grenadier Battalion is shown with 12 RPzB-54 (three each for the Rifle Companies and three for the Heavy Company), while the Motorised PzGren Battalion just has three per Rifle Company. It is the only contemporary document I've seen that suggests the Panzerschrecks were reintroduced to the Panzer Grenadiers, at least before the November 1944 KStN that rewrote the Motorised version of the PzGren Battalion and introduced the exciting development of Bicycle Mobile troops to mechanised warfare!

Gary

yantaylor
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by yantaylor » 29 Jun 2021 21:00

Really found this very helpful Gary, and I am singing on the same hymn sheet as you.

The April 44 changes, would they have been implemented to any of the grenadier companies in time for the invasion? We have discussed before along with Alan, that the Sd.kfz 251/17 would not be available before June 44, or that is how I have conceived it.

I have decided to used 251/10s for platoon HQ vehicles, but I don’t know if I should used them for Heavy platoon HQ or even the vehicles used for carrying the MMGs, maybe just use 251/1s, but I am still undecided.

Thank you and great win for England.
Ian

yantaylor
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by yantaylor » 03 Jul 2021 14:28

Okay everyone, I have used the info in this thread to hopefully come up with a type of numbering for a typical Pz Gren Coy around the time of the Normandy battles, I have gone safe and choose the first armoured company of the first battalion, probably Wehrmacht, but I am unsure if this can be used by the SS, as they could have done it a little different with maybe four didgets.

Company HQ
101 (Commanders APC)
102 (Assistant Commanders APC)

1st Platoon
111 (Platoon HQ APC)
112
113
114

2nd Platoon
121 (Platoon HQ APC)
122
123
124

3rd Platoon
131 (Platoon HQ APC)
132
133
134

4th Heavy Platoon
141 (Platoon HQ APC)
142 (Heavy MG)
143 (Heavy MG)
144 (8cm Mortar)
145 (8cm Mortar)
146 (7.5cm Cannon)
147 (7.5cm Cannon)

I am still think of the Sd. Kfz 251/10 for the commanders APCs as they would be more available then the Sd. Kfz 251/17, so maybe six 251/10s per company?

Please let me know if this would work so I can source some decals for my models.

Stay safe everyone!
Ian

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