Armoured PzGren company numbering

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
yantaylor
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Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by yantaylor » 22 Jun 2021 11:39

Hi everyone, hope you are keeping safe.

I am about to start adding company numbers to my German sd.kfz 251 company circa 1943/45, thus I need a system which would allow be to buy the decals in order to do this.
Was there a standard numbering system for all Heer armoured Pz Gren companies in the battalion? Say I choose the first company of the first battalion all equipped with APCs, would the numbering be the same as any other numbering from any other PzGren 1st company?

I have tried to keep it straight forward and taken in the help and advice given to me by some very kind people of this board, so I have kept it to this;

2 x HQ APCs
2 x Anti-tank APCs
12 x Rifle platoon APCs (inc Plt leader vehicles)
1 x Heavy weapon platoon HQ/APC
2 x MMG APCs
2 x Mortar APCs
2 x 75mm Gun Apcs

Can anyone help me to number these please?
I realise that the SS may have a different system.
Once this is done I will need to turn my focus onto the Sd.Kfz 250s in recce platoons, but that will be a long time off.

Thank you, and all please stay safe!
Ian

yantaylor
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by yantaylor » 23 Jun 2021 20:14

I have found this, which would work pretty well, except for the two sdkfz 251s used to carry the anti-tank teams (panzerschrecks) and the seven sdkfz 251s in the support platoon:
This would be for the 4th company in a standard armoured Panzergrenadier battalion;

HQ - 401, 402,
1st Platoon - 403, 404, 405, 406
2nd Platoon - 407, 408, 409, 410
3rd Platoon - 411, 412, 413,

So would the support platoon be:
4th Platoon - 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420

If this is correct then I just need the numbers for the two anti-tank halftracks.

Ian

SIS 5
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by SIS 5 » 23 Jun 2021 22:54

Hi Ian,

a very interesting question, also for me. Are these vehicles of the first company, second platoon?

Regards

Bert
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spannermann
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by spannermann » 24 Jun 2021 00:01

Hi Ian,
The 4th Kp of a 1943/44 period Pz Gren Battalion would be entirely a heavy weapons company, not just its 4th Platoon.

For companies 1,2 and 3 the 4th Platoon would be their heavy weapons support platoon.

However most Ist battalions of a P Gren Regt (i.e companies 1-4 ) were motorised not armoured, there are of course some exceptions, where a very few Pz divisions were fully armoured, but its not standard.

To call a 251 that happens to have a Panzerschreck aboard an "anti-tank APC" would not be correct, the PzSchreck is just another infantry weapon carried along with everything else that the vehicle had. Of course it give the APC troops an anti-tank capability, but it does not make the APC an anti-tank vehicle.

But to be more accurate with vehicular and weaponry content, you have to specify which period of time you are talking about, as there were 1943, 1944 and 1945 variations to PzGren unit OOB's (Kstn's), For most Army Panzer Divisions I Battalion Kstn 1114 was for motorised companies 1-3, Kstn 1121 for motorised heavy company 4, for the II Battalion Kstn 1114 c gp for armoured companies 5-7 and Kstn 1121 a gp for armoured heavy company 8.


I believe Bert's photo showing SPW's in a 1st Kp is for the Wiking SS Pz Div which was one of the few Pz Divs that was fully armoured at one stage in its life.

The only real difference between Waffen-SS and Army Pz Gren Regiments is that most Waffen SS PzG Regiments had three battalions as opposed to most Army divisions having two Battalions per PzG Regiment.

cheers PAUL

yantaylor
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by yantaylor » 24 Jun 2021 11:39

Many thanks to you both, always a pleasure.
I was basing my Kompanie on Leo’s excellent work, mainly on his version of the KStN 1114c (gp), Grenadier-Kompanie Armoured 01.11.1943.
It shows this;

Antitank Section
2 Antitank Teams, each with
1 NCO as Section Leader and Gunner (SMG)
1 Loader (Pistol)
1 antitank rocket launcher (88mm)
2 Antitank Teams, each with
1 Section Leader and Gunner (SMG)
1 Loader (Pistol)
1 antitank rocket launcher (88mm)
1 Halftrack Driver (Rifle)
1 Halftrack Vehicle Escort / Radioman (Rifle)
1 medium armored 2cm gun halftrack (Sd. Kfz. 251/17)

So what numbering would these two APCs have in relation to the rest of the company?

Thanks for getting back to me guys, great to do dialog with you both again.
Stay safe
Regards
Ian

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by Gary Kennedy » 24 Jun 2021 13:47

Hi Ian,

Is this the kind of thing you were asking about?

It is something from germandocsinrussia, from a short pamphlet titled "Taktische Nummern fur Pz.Gren (gp)" and other units, dated 24.04.44. I've been trying to find the original document back on germandocs but I can't. Perhaps someone else might have better luck searching? I can add the other pages, it just seems easier to link to them.

The list on page 2 of the scan refers to an Armoured PzGren Company on the April 1944 fG organisation. If I'm reading it right, a halftrack mounted No.1 Company would use a three digit code on its halftracks -

Company HQ
101 (Company HQ, CO's veh)
102 (Company HQ veh)

1st Platoon
111 (Platoon HQ veh)
112-114 (1st, 2nd and 3rd Squads, 1st Platoon)

2nd Platoon
121-124 (HQ and three Squads)

3rd Platoon
131-134 (HQ and three Squads)

4th Heavy Platoon
141 (Platoon HQ veh)
142-143 (Heavy MG Group)
144-45 (8-cm Mortar Group)
146-47 (7.5-cm Cannon Group)

I won't pretend to have any great familiarity with German vehicle markings or tactical numbers so I don't know how closely or not this system was followed in reality.

Gary
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SIS 5
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by SIS 5 » 24 Jun 2021 14:15

Hi Gary,

a great document! Thank You very much for posting.

Here another pic of a Sd.Kfz. 251 with the number "3501". I have no idea what is this number standing for. Maybe You know it.

Regards

Bert
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spannermann
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by spannermann » 24 Jun 2021 14:28

Hi Bert,

Its a command vehicle in the Fusliier Regiment of the Grossdeutschland Pz Div with what is reported to be an ex-Luftwaffe aircraft weapon mounted (maybe).

By the latter stages of the war numbering was often deliberately misleading to avoid enemy identifying particularly command vehicles, Consequently 3501 only really means something to those immediately closely involved with this vehicle and its unit, as would be the intention.

cheers PAUL

spannermann
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by spannermann » 24 Jun 2021 14:38

Hi Ian,
In order to avoid confusion and contradictory information you should chose to represent with your models a very specific unit in a very specific time period.

Your quote of Kstn 1114 c (gp) of November 1943 also mentions the SdKfz 251/17, which did not appear in units until very late 1944, by which time Kstn 1114c (gp) had been reissued in July 1944 with a slightly different content.

As for company numbering, Kstn 1114c (gp) usually represents companies 5, 6 and 7 of the II Battalion of one of the two PzGren Rgts of an Army panzer division, and companies 9, 10 and 11 of the III Battalion of one of the PzGren Rgts of a Waffen-SS panzer division.

But as said before there are variations throughout the panzer divisions, so best to pick a specific unit, paperwork and reality do not always coincide.

For example the Pz Lehr in Normandy is reported as having all its Pz Gren companies as armoured.

cheers PAUL

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Алексей
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by Алексей » 24 Jun 2021 16:45


SIS 5
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by SIS 5 » 24 Jun 2021 22:54

Hi,

thank You very much for Your answer, Paul. Very interesting for me!

Here three pics of Sd.Kfz. 251 of the 4th Panzerdivision: 934 - 3301 - 4401.
Source of the pics: "4. Dywizja Pancerna" by Andrzej Kinski, Tomasz Nowakowski, Mariusz Skotnicki, Robert Sawicki.

Regards

Bert
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spannermann
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by spannermann » 24 Jun 2021 23:41

Hi Bert,
There is actually a document issued by the Inspector General of the Armoured Forces in April 1944, that gives guidance for a four digit system, but it is still largely up to individual units to use their own ideas, and its all about confusing the enemy and not making command vehicles obvious, as they were with the older system of R, I, II, III etc.,.

cheers Paul

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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by SIS 5 » 25 Jun 2021 07:45

Hi Paul,

thanks a lot for Your reply. Now I understand. Here an example for the older system: "III 02".

Regards

Bert
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yantaylor
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by yantaylor » 25 Jun 2021 14:18

Again, many thanks to all of you, you have all done me proud!

So, by the looks of it, the two 251s which carried these four Panzerschreck teams, don’t seem to appear on any of the data above, so where they in use in June 44? I can see that nine of the Infantry 251s have a Panzerschreck in situ for use by the squad, so would this make the other two halftracks surplus to requirements?

If these halftrack where not widley issued it will save me over £20 in costs to buy them.

Thanks again everyone as you have all been a great help.
Stay safe
Ian

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Armoured PzGren company numbering

Post by Gary Kennedy » 25 Jun 2021 16:25

Hi Ian,

The one (not two) SdKfz 251 with four RPzB54 teams only appears on KStN 1114c (gp) of 01 Nov 1943. It was deleted with the superseding 1114c (gp) (fG) of 01 Apr 1944. Other than that, the number and type of halftracks authorised on the two tables was pretty much the same. I think you can easily deploy your tabletop Company with it.

Gary

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