12th SS v Sherbrooke Fusiliers at Buron-Authie June 7 1944

[Michael Kenny]

All accounts I have read put B Squadron 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment east of Buron and C Squadron west of them. However Wochenschnau 719 June 16 1944

https://youtu.be/1pSew20P2M4?t=5m14s


shows M4s 'Blitz' and 'Chaser' knocked out within yards of each other.

Left 'Blitz', far right 'Chaser' with No. 22 at the rear.



Chaser


Blitz



The third tank is this one numbered '22'






In the same film Abbaye d'Ardenne is visible in the background



Which means the men are somewhere in the lower LH half of this air view.
Abbaye d'Ardenne is top left of centre.

[Michael Kenny]

This is Blitz from the front



and these wrecks are shown in the same newsreel:




These 2 could be the same tank




Bomber

[Michael Kenny]

Map of the battle



and an air view



This is where Chaser and Blitz were knocked out with no. 22 Cherry.



Note the location is Franqueville and reading John Gilbert's 'Bloddy Buron' I see he mentions there was some confusion as to where the engagement took place and he says it was more likely Franqueville than the commonly accepted Authie. He is correct.

Note that the POWs seen in my first post were located somewhere at the centre bottom of the above air view and thus must be survivors from the tanks being taken away.

[phillip burke]

Hello all, following from war diaries 12th ss panzer , II./SS-Panzer Regiment 12; General situation,the enemy succeeded in invading the shoreline between Le Havre and Cherbourg in the early morning hours of June 6th 1944.Large numbers of airborne troops were reported to have landed in the ares northwest of Caen.Task of the 12-SS Panzer Div ;depature from the quarters area ,attack the enemy in Caen,destroy them and push them back into the sea.For this SS-Pz Gren Rgt 25 with the units of II/SS-Pz Rgt 12 prepare north of the Caen- St Germain- Brettiville road. The II/SS-Pz Rgt 12 occupies the attack posistion in the following battle order;8th-kompanie on the right ,the 5th and 6th on the side ,and the 9th and 10th kompanies behind them as reserves.Order for the II/Abteilung ; ATTACK AND DESTROY THE ENEMY. Launch attack on the orders of the ''Abteiluingskommandeur''.Pack at Etterville on the Venoix-Evercy road.The workshop Kompanie remains in Meulles on the Orbec-Vimoutiers road until further orders. .. . . . . .. . .1330 hours;the II/Abteilung occupies the alloted attack positions. . . . . . . ... . ... . . 1400 hours;apperance of enemy tanks at Frankueville and Authie.The 5th and 6th Kompanie instantly engaged the enemy and destroyed a number of Sherman tanks.The enemy retreated .Ammunition expenditure;300 high explosive shells,235armour piercing shells ,800 steel core,machine gun ammunition.. . . . . . ... 1730; the II/Abteilung departs against the enemy ,which advances towards Caen from the northwest.The Abteilung marches through the posistions of the SS-Pz Grn Btl lying under enemy fire,and attacks the enemy tanks and anti-tank guns. . . .. ....... .. .Scores . . . The 5th kompanie knocked out 9 Shermans at Frankuville and Authie . . . . . . .the 6th kompanie knocked out 14 Shermans, 3 armoured personnal carriers and 4 anti-tank guns at Authie. . . . . .the 7th kompanie knocked out 5 Shermans at Bouron. . . . . .the 8th kompanie knocked out 1 Sherman at La Folie.. . . . . . . . . The 5th and 6th kompanies took 450 prisoners of war altogether,who were taken back by the soldiers of the Pz Grn Btl. Our own losses that day.. . . . . . .3 panzer IV of the 5th kompanie. . . . .4 panzer IV of the 6th kompanie . . . .4 panzer IV of the 7th kompanie . . . . .1 panzer IV of the 8th kompanie.. , , , , , , , , , , , ,, , will post the rest tomorrow,long day.

[seaburn]

Hi Michael - a bit off topic but can throw any light on the total tank losses for the Canadians and 12th SS that day.

In the war diary of the 27th Armoured Regiment (Sherbrook Fusiliers) they list total enemy tanks destroyed as 41 - they own losses totalling 15. The North Nova Scotia Highlanders war diary claims 40 enemy tanks destroyed for 27 of theirs. Meanwhile the KTB of the II./Abt Panzerregiment.12 quotes a loss of 12 panzers for 29 enemy tanks destroyed. (Not sure if these were totally lost and others that were reclaimed are not noted)

The NNSH had engaged with the enemy from the early hours of the morning but only mentions half tracks kills in that period - in any event these would not have been the 12th SS as they had not arrived in the area at that time. The major engagements only commenced at 14.00hrs. I presume there would be a number of duplicate kill claims by the two Canadian regiments but this should not be for every panzer that was hit.


Canadian claims total:

Enemy destroyed - 81
Own losses - 42


12 SS KTB Claims Total:

Enemy destroyed - 29 (Prinz's RK recommendation cites 30)
Own losses - 12


So obviously the total numbers don't add up. 81 panzers destroyed would have completely obliterated Prinz's Abt - and in fact most accounts record that he only had between 30-50 Panzer IV's at his disposal at that time as part of his Abt were still in transit to the front. As you know the I./Abt were also not in action that day nor were 21st Panzer Division who were supposed to take part. So the losses would have been totally Prinz's Abt.

Obviously as war diaries are written just after the battles and as such the figues can't be conisdered accurate, the fact that the German kill claims are less than the Canadians admitted losses is interesting also - have more accurate figures come to light in the intervening years ?

[Christianmunich]

Having not cross-referenced the claims and just going off from the comment above this would be a nice example of my theory that Allied forces were strongly overclaiming compared to rather accurate German claiming. Interesting.

[Michael Kenny]

Hi Michael - a bit off topic but can throw any light on the total tank losses for the Canadians and 12th SS that day.

In the war diary of the 27th Armoured Regiment (Sherbrook Fusiliers) they list total enemy tanks destroyed as 41 - they own losses totalling 15. The North Nova Scotia Highlanders war diary claims 40 enemy tanks destroyed for 27 of theirs.

Canadian claims total:

Enemy destroyed - 81
Own losses - 42

The tank Regiment was 27 CAR. They were the only Allied tanks present on the battlefield. NNSH were an Infantry Unit so had no tanks to lose. Their 'kill/loss claims' don't count.

Meanwhile the KTB of the II./Abt Panzerregiment.12 quotes a loss of 12 panzers for 29 enemy tanks destroyed. (Not sure if these were totally lost and others that were reclaimed are not noted)

The 29 kill claims are for 5,6,7 & 8 kp at 17:30 on 7/6/44.
At 14:00 5 & 6 kp claimed 'a number of Shermans'.
The total number of kills claimed by 12th SS on 7/6/44 is 39 with 12 total losses

The Canadian over-claim would be 12:41 and the German claim 15:39.

Having not cross-referenced the claims and just going off from the comment above..........

Fatal mistake and typical for you. Given you are clueless as to Allied Units I suspect you know that you are incapable of checking anyway.

this would be a nice example of my theory that Allied forces were strongly over-claiming compared to rather accurate German claiming. Interesting.

It is indeed.
Let me repeat them for you:

The Canadian over-claim would be 12:41 and the German claim 15:39.

I would say that is a devastating demolition of your 'theory'.

[Christianmunich]

You got your numbers wrong Kenny. Surprise...

The tank Regiment was 27 CAR. They were the only Allied tanks present on the battlefield. NNSH were an Infantry Unit so had no tanks to lose. Their 'kill/loss claims' don't count.

Not sure how this makes any sense, if the NNSH destroyed tanks then obviously the 27 CAR couldn't have destroyed those tanks......

[Michael Kenny]

Not sure how this makes any sense, if the NNSH destroyed tanks then obviously the 27 CAR couldn't have destroyed those tanks......

Read the NNSH War Diary and you will understand everything.

[Tom from Cornwall]

The question obviously being were the NNSH “claiming” those tanks as destroyed by themselves or by Canadian forces in total?

Regards

Tom

[MarkN]

The question obviously being were the NNSH “claiming” those tanks as destroyed by themselves or by Canadian forces in total?

Notice in the NNSH diary how they switch from companies when talking about their own infantry to squadrons when talking about the accompanying tanks of Sherbrook Fusiliers.

[Michael Kenny]

This air view dated June 7th caught the 3 Sherman wrecks at Franqueville

US7 1775 P-0045 June 7th Franqueville, Carpiquet M4s a.jpg

US7 1775 P-0045 June 7th Franqueville, Carpiquet M4s bc.jpg

[Michael Kenny]

Anyone know where the front line was fixed on the night of June 7th? There are some interesting air views of tanks on the move and it would be a great help if someone has already got the info that could say if they were Canadian or German.

Screenshot_432.jpg

[Poot]

The photos portray the engagement area as being almost completely flat. The location of the German gun crew is more or less noted (the label conceals the true position), but did they operate from a camouflaged position? I don't see anything that would function as cover except for some parts of buildings in the distance, but that's without knowledge of their composition.

[Michael Kenny]

I posted this yesterday in another thread but it would be useful in this thread:


2 CAR kept detailed tank loss numbers. The total number of tanks they wrote off on June 7 was 15.
2 of the losses were Stuart recce tanks.
12th SS total losses for June 7th were 12 Pz IV.
12th SS claimed 29 tank kills .
2 CAR claimed 41 tank kills.
The encounter, in terms of losses, seems to have been pretty even.

Those reading Szamveber's 'Waffen SS Armor In Normandy' might gain a different impression. Szamveber (page 40) footnotes Reynolds ( page 69 Steel Inferno) as 'confirming' that 2 CAR lost 28 tanks this day of which 21 were destroyed. It is clear that Reynolds read the June Appendix in the Sherbrooke's War Diary but he either can't read properly or wilfully misrepresented the numbers (as in conflating categories and double-counting) in the hope no one would check. I checked. Reynolds got it wrong. Reynolds also undercounts the 12th SS losses at 9 instead of 12.

In the war diary of the 27th Armoured Regiment (Sherbrook Fusiliers) they list total enemy tanks destroyed as 41 - they own losses totalling 15. The North Nova Scotia Highlanders war diary claims 40 enemy tanks destroyed for 27 of theirs.

The Infantry (NNSH) seem to have got the Sherbrooke's claimed kill number right but the losses are way off. 2 CAR (Sherbrooke's) have a very detailed loss-list for the period June 6-11 in the June War Diary Appendix. Every single loss is tabulated for HQ , A, B & C Squadrons by date of loss except for B Squadron who just list all their losses June 6- 11 as one consolidated number. The most tanks 2 CAR could have written off on June 7th is 15, 13 M4 and 2 HQ Stuarts.. This list is definitive. It is even possible some of the B Squadron losses were not from June 7th and the single A Squadron loss is down to mechanical failure but I wont quibble.